Threads from Henry's Web

Category: Administrative

  • Unlumping the Various Creationists

    . . . or not, as the case may be.

    Almost two years ago I wrote about my difficulties with the term theistic evolutionist. (I dealt with these definitions more recently here.) My problem was, and is, that the theory of evolution I accept is not different from that accepted by non-theistic evolutionists. The theory of evolution explains a variety of natural processes and brings them together in a theoretical framework. My theism doesn’t alter anything there.

    Today Ed Brayton has elevated a discussion between himself and commenter King of Ireland about this issue to a full post. In his case it’s kind of the opposing sphere, and the question is whether it’s right to lump together a large group of people from intelligent design (ID) advocates to young earth creationists and call them all “creationists.” Would it be useful to add those who believe in guided evolution into the same crowd?

    Let’s look at this just a bit. Evolution involves a group of concepts. I’m going to list them in the order of how thoroughly established they are. Understand that I regard all of these elements as well established; I require them in an order to deal with division of the creationists below.

    1. The earth is old, about 4.5 billion years old, in fact
    2. All life on earth is related (common descent)
    3. The relatedness of all life can be substantially explained by variation and natural selection

    I call anyone who accepts all these points an evolutionist. I don’t like the “ist,” but “someone who accepts the theory of evolution” gets clumsy after a few repetitions. There are a couple of variants that should be mentioned.

    First, there is the notion of guided evolution. There is an important divide here between those who think guidance can be detected, and those who do not. The latter are still generally evolutionists, and could carry out research within the theory. Guided evolution in that sense is a philosophical view, not a scientific one as I see it. Those who believe that the guided evolution is detectable, on the other hand, step outside the theory of evolution, and should be expected to provide hypotheses and test them.

    Second, there is that group of people who expect natural causes to explain everything, but don’t think the current explanations are sufficient. They might, for example, assume that life came here from outer space, but believe it formed elsewhere under unknown conditions. Aside from noting that the actual origin of life is not part of the theory of evolution, while this is a bit perverse, it is nonetheless a natural type of explanation. Lacking evidence for or against, it is simply speculation. Again, the proponents need to get down to the hard science.

    Now for creationists. There are several key breaking points, which I list below in less logical order:

    1. The Bible provides accurate scientific information
    2. The earth is young, 6,000 to 10,000 years old (young earth creationists who deny the great age of the earth)
    3. There is a substantial barrier to variation so that new “kinds” cannot be produced (generally old earth creationists, though the point is applicable to all)
    4. God has intervened repeatedly in the history of life to produce new kinds, and this interference can be detected, or at least the need for it can be demonstrated. (I regard “it might be a space alien” as just a silly attempt to distract us from the religious nature of the claim.)

    Are there substantial differences between these views? Absolutely. The fourth option does not require one to accept that the Bible conveys accurate scientific information, nor does it expect one to deny the overwhelming evidence of the age of the earth. One might argue that it doesn’t even require one to deny common descent, as claimed by Michael Behe.

    So is it fair to group these people together as “creationists” and to exclude the people I described as evolutionists from the camp, even though they might believe in God as ultimate creator?

    There is, in fact, one huge common denominator between all of the groups of creationists: They believe that God has intervenes in the world on an ongoing basis in a way that can be detected. Generally this takes the form of claiming that certain levels of changes in organisms cannot be explained through natural means, thus requiring intervention of the intelligent designer. I’d be unsurprised if someone came by to tell me yet again that this designer need not be God, but I find that explanation so contrived that it’s hard to imagine it is being seriously presented.

    The ID proponents themselves, however, have contributed to this lumping, even though they regularly complain about it. In creating a big tent, they have brought young earth creationists, old earth creationists, and guided evolutionists into the same big tent. Then they complain if they are all called by the same label. The odd thing is that ID is a proposition that can sound good to people with such a wide variety of viewpoints. The sneaky part of it is that it manages this by failing to propose anything very substantial.

    Consider the vast differences there would be in nature if there had been a world wide flood. I can’t see how you get believers in a world wide flood under the same tent as those who propose a more local event. Actually covering the entire planet with water would leave such an indelible mark that it would be unmistakable, and no explanation of the geological record that didn’t take it into account would get anywhere. Yet supposedly both work together under ID.

    Someone might say that I have been terribly unfair, because ID says nothing related to a global flood. ID could be true, whether or not such a thing happened. And certainly ID would be true in all cases. That’s how in combines Michael Behe on the one hand and someone like Paul Nelson on the other. It doesn’t say very much.

    But what it does say is very, very powerful–to the creationist mind. It provides the one single thing that all these views have in common: God intervened repeatedly in the history of life in the world.

    All varieties of creationist agree that natural processes, whether or not one postulates they were created by God, are insufficient to explain the diversification of life on earth. ID is not merely creationism; it is distilled, bottled, and aged creationism.

    Based on this I believe it is entirely fair to refer to this entire group as creationists. They may distance themselves from one another, and it is also good to distinguish them from one another when that is signification, young earth, old earth, believer in a universal flood, and so forth.

    ID is the essence of creationism. It is creationism. It’s proponents have been careful to gather the widest variety of creationists possible under their umbrella. All we are doing in calling them creationists is going with what they, themselves have done. They’d prefer we didn’t, and that should tell us something as well. What sort of people like to disguise their identities?

  • Continuing the Health Care Conversation

    Mark has started responding (crossposted to Stones Cry Out) to some of what I have said on health care, though I have said very little and done so with many words!

    Mark describes his post as a bit critical, but I would describe it more as vigorously advancing the conversation. If there was an award for most constructive response, his would get it. I like the rewrite of my story. Unfortunately, it didn’t happen that way, which was part of my point. There were certainly things done wrong in my story.

    I do want to make one correction. I am not the priest or minister of my parish. I lead a parachurch ministry (Pacesetters Bible School) which is a small ministry dedicated to helping local congregations with religious education. I have to do my “tentmaking” which involves both earnings from my writing and some computer work. Thus I have contact with several congregations, and I have a congregation to which I belong, but I am not the pastor of any.

    The question on which I’d like to contact as I go forward is simply how do we get from my story to the story that ought to be? That’s easier said than done. I recall one occasion when our son was having surgery that we were supported by four pastors (remember the multiple church contacts) and a crowd of helpful church members. I know of a number of cases, however, in which people have been lost in the system somehow, and they do not get the pastoral care. There are a number of reasons for that, and I’d like to discuss them. (I commented some on a related topic on my Running Toward the Goal podcast today.)

    In my emergency room case some people were aware, but little was done. I don’t blame anyone for that. My suspicion is that 20 people found out at once and each assumed somebody else had called prayer chains and so forth. Again, a good topic as we continue is how we change that situation in congregations where this happens.

    I’m often more of a story teller, and find it hard to get to the point, but let me mention one more thing. I was thinking this morning of my father’s funeral. Our family (I’m the out of town guy in this place) was unable to contact his pastor, and so finally asked me to preach for the funeral. After consulting a pastor who is a friend on whom I can rely for honest counsel, I agreed. The question I had in my mind this morning was how does it happen that a retired missionary dies, and the family can’t locate his pastor? But then another question came to mind. Why should it matter whether he was a retired missionary? Why should any church member be unable to contact a pastor at such a time?

    Yes, I’m very well aware of pastors being busy, having vacations, and problems with communication. But in many churches I know any pastor who was going to be out of touch for more than an hour or so would have an alternative option provided. When on vacation, there are always ministers of neighboring churches to cover for the pastor. Further, I think we depend too heavily on the pastor in circumstances like these. Who in the church is prepared to take action?

    As you can doubtless see, I’m not answering many of these questions, but I do intend to post on many of these as time goes on. In the meantime I think it would be wonderful if other Christian bloggers would join this discussion. Surely the role of the church here is of interest to many of us, and something on which we can converse productively.

  • Upgraded to WordPress 2.5

    I have upgraded the software for this blog to WordPress 2.5. I believe with the way I did it nobody should have noticed more than a momentary (less that 30 second) glitch. If there were any other problems I apologize.

    Please let me know if any new difficulties emerge.

  • No More -MORE-

    OK, the votes are in and I see some people who don’t like -MORE- tags, and nobody who really, really wants them, so I’m going to go with my inclinations and not use them at all. I used them so rarely, and so inconsistently that it was probably not going to work anyhow.

    Thanks to those who responded, and to those who didn’t, thus allowing me to imagine that their viewpoint supported what I wanted to believe in the first place!

  • -MORE- Tags: To Use or Not

    The -MORE- tag in this blog software breaks out a portion of the post to show on the main page, while requiring you to click on a link if you wish to continue reading. I keep trying to remember to use them, but I generally forget.

    What do you readers think? Do you like to see just a sample on the main page, and only see the full post if it interests you, or is it easier just to scroll through even the longer posts? I’d be interested in any comments.

  • Happy Easter!

    I’m waiting till it’s time to head off for our Easter service with my wife, so I thought I’d wish everyone a happy Easter. I don’t expect to post more today, though I’m going to follow an older church practice by talking about Easter through the Easter season. I’m going to call your attention to my short story from last years, Easter Morning Resurrection.

  • Totally Restored (I Presume!)

    Everything should be back in place now. I found some additional glitches, including several posts with zeroed out dates (that puts them in 1969, which is miraculous!), but I think things are working again.

  • Site Restored (Mostly)

    All the posts have been restored, but I tried to get creative, and to put it generously, the results were not quite what I planned. I have some comments to restore yet. If you commented between February 15 and February 26, it’s possible your comment isn’t there. I do have your comment, however, and will restore them shortly.

    I’ll make another administrative post when all the comments are where they belong. Otherwise things are fine.

  • Site Restored

    Well, it was a long couple of days, but the site is back up and working. I believe there should be nothing missing at this point. If there is, please let me know. There were a few things to restore manually, item by item, but not that many.

    I appreciate your patience–assuming you had some!–and hope to keep things up and running at this point.

    I’ll make a separate post about this, but I have already posted the Christian Carnival to my Jevlir Caravansary blog, because I knew that it would be some hours before I had time to straighten this one out. I have yet to fix my Threads blog, but it will doubtless be done yet this afternoon.

  • Church Politics Good and Bad

    Not too long ago I posted about the necessity for church politics. Today I was reading Frederick W. Danker’s commentary on 2 Corinthians, and I ran across a similar argument, based on 2 Corinthians.

    Let me quote it:

    Much of Paul’s success lay in his political acumen, with a flair for recognition of the potential of others for service. If politics is the art of mobilizing power and resources, material and human–with whatever bureaucratic structures are necessary–to satisfy the optimum requirements for justice and to ensure the safety of the powerless, St. Paul qualifies as one of its masters. There are those who shy away from the use of the terms politics and bureaucracy in connection with ecclesiastical matters. But if politics is presumed to be so intrinsically tainted that the institutional church is embarrassed by the term, there is no reason to expect “politicians” to think better of themselves. There is no escape from reality–politics and bureaucracy are facts of life, and it is primarily a question of whether there will be good or bad politics and good or bad bureaucrats. It is also true that groups of people ultimately determine which kind will prevail. In this letter to Corinth, Paul exposes practitioners of bad politics and invites his addressees to insist on good politics. He himself claims to be a politician dedicated to the interests of God and Jesus Christ, and therefore of the Corinthians’ interests. It is not surprising therefore that many of Paul’s statements in this letter relate to matters of morale, authority, teamwork, and obedience.

    I think this paragraph presents a very important truth, and it is well supported by the epistles of Paul, and particularly 1 & 2 Corinthians. Whether in politics or in the church, when we dismiss all politics as dirty or unnecessary we simply guarantee that we will have bad politics.

    Cynics around the country will fail to vote or fail to express their opinions and then will complain. But they themselves are complicit in the fact that politics is dirty, because they do not participate and place their votes against the bad politicians.

    In many churches there are people who complain about the way the church functions. In my own United Methodist denomination many like to complain about the larger church organization, but very few people want to get involved and do the hard work of making church politics function well.

    We have to get involved and expect–no, insist on–more. Otherwise we’ll continue to get less.

    (I wrote a short review of Danker’s commentary on 2 Corinthians here.)