Threads from Henry's Web

Category: Bible Versions

Comments on various translations of the Bible and relation translation issues.

  • Another KJV-Only Comment

    Every so often a KJV-Only advocate comes by this blog to comment.  They normally don’t hang around long, but I occasionally feel inclined to respond.  I like to tolerate and even celebrate other points of view, but I don’t make an idol of it; it’s one value, not the value.  KJV-Only is one of those views I simply cannot respect.  It’s too divorced from reality.

    This most recent comment was no exception.  It resulted from my poll on Bible translation.

    There were 5 versions of the Biblical Scriptures/Sources-printed–

    Really?  Which five were these, and which versions will you exclude from your list?

    The One in English from the Textus Receptus(received Text) was the Authorized King James Version-1611-

    Well, at least this is approximately correct.

    All Others were from the Catholic Codexes/Manuscripts found from 1841 -1881

    Well, no, not precisely.  In fact, many other versions were translated from the TR or something similar, many manuscripts were discovered outside that time frame, and I have no idea what makes a manuscript “Catholic.”  If one uses any definition that doesn’t make practically every manuscript at the time Catholic, then relatively few would be.  One wonders whether all manuscripts copied in the eastern church are Catholic or not.

    –which were in Philosophical Greek-Not Koine-

    No, they were not.  They were in the same dialect as the rest.

    that were being used as fire-starters in the churches-

    This is a falsehood built from a falsehood.  The initial one was that Sinaiticus was being used to start fires, which would comment on the stupidity of the person so using it rather than on the value of the manuscript, but even then we can hardly jump to “fire-starters in churches.”  But even the fire starting in the monastery is not factual.  (See here.)

    and Not complete/or Preserved as God Promises- which Add,Subtract, and Change the Word of God

    By what standard do you judge completeness and preservation?  Is not a manuscript with additions just as corrupt (if that is even the correct word) as one with deletions?  In order to determine which is the case, one needs to have some idea of the source text.

    And on another note, why can’t KJV-Only advocates punctuate normally and write complete sentences?

    /Perverts Doctrines–contrary to the Word of God–From these the American People Seek to make Profit in the Churches like the “Money-Changers” of Old that Jesus chased – out of the Churches ??–

    The folks who print KJV Bibles also make a profit.

    The 70 Translaters of the King James Bible did Not Hide their Identities like those of the Modernistic Versions-

    This is simply false.  Many modern translations include lists of the translators. For editions that do not, a little bit of web research will turn up the information.

    Many who themselves claimed to be Atheists, Agnostics, and Members of “Cults” ??—

    … assuming that atheists, agnostics, and members of cults cannot translate.  But the fact is that most of the translators of modern versions belonged to churches that would fall within orthodoxy.

    My Great Grandparents readily understood the King James Bible- SO are people today More Stupid or What ??—

    The argument about readability, as anyone should be able to tell, is not that people are getting less intelligent, it is that language has changed.  Modern English would be similarly difficult for people of a few centuries ago.  The reason KJV-Only advocates generally can’t read Greek isn’t that they’re stupid; it’s that they haven’t learned Greek.

    The King James Bible IS The Bible–Not Just Another “Version”–or should I say — a “Perversion” ??

    On the contrary, the KJV is a version.  It is not the original.  It is not the best.  It’s not extraordinarily inspired.  It’s just one translation of a set of texts into a new language.

    The sad excuse of “Interpretation(s)”–is Weak at the Best-for those who Reject the Authority of God’s Word in their Lives..

    Well, no.  Any translation involves interpretation.  Any preaching involves interpretation.  You can’t get away from it.

    I have found that the KJV 1611 Bible woks just fine with those that I witness to in other countries that are 3rd World countries–

    I’m sure you imagine that you do.  It’s amazing to me how many people can convince themselves they are communicating when they are not.

    But these Modern Perversions only Confuses them !!!

    I suspect that the problem is that the modern version make them question what you have to say.

    – In Cambodia I found that the Mormons(a Cult) even PAYS People to come to Church ??–Further Proof that their “Another Testament of Jesus Christ ” has NO Power in the Word !!!

    Of course, use of modern versions is not connected to Mormonism, so this is just a red herring.

    And thus we come to the end of another KJV-Only comment.  I spent too much time on it, but on occasion it’s fun.

  • Comments for NIV Revision Committee

    Wayne Leman reminds us that comments for the NIV2011 revision are only open until the end of December.  I never can make a final decision on these things, which would make me a lousy translation committee member, but if you have suggestions now is the time!

  • New English Translations Poll

    I’ve posted a poll for discussing the need, or lack thereof, for new English translations.  This post exists solely for comments on that poll.  Note that multiple answers are permitted in case one is not double-minded, but perhaps a bit fuzzy.

  • Professors are Liberal and They Translate the Bible

    Just in case you thought reinventing Jesus was just a liberal project …

    I haven’t said much about the conservative Bible project, mostly because I suspect everyone can guess quite accurately what I think, but this article on Yahoo! News lays out the ideas, such as they are.  I keep thinking this must all be tongue in cheek, but nobody has jumped out and said “boo!” yet.

    HT:  Better Bibles

  • Translating Philippians 1:9-11

    Philippians 1:3-11 is one of the Lectionary passages this week, and so I read through it this morning during my devotional time in Greek.  Now Paul is good at long sentences.  I remember the embarrassment once working with a Greek student who was translating this passage in his second year.  He was doing OK in literal terms, but I was suggesting how he might make the English clearer.  Well, pride goes before a fall, and I had hardly begun to do my “freer” translation when the moorings came completely loose and I got totally tangled up.  It took three or four tries before the result was coherent, and it still wasn’t that great.

    It’s not that I’m not well acquainted with the passage.  It is even one of those I have recorded for myself on CD so I can listen while driving.  But you wouldn’t have known it from my English that day.  The problem is that you can either translate one of Paul’s long Greek sentences into a harder to understand long English one, or you can try to keep the right sense in the transitions using shorter sentences.

    This morning, after reading, I looked it up in the NLT, and then compared that first to the NRSV and then the CEV.  I’m going to put the NRSV first, as it’s most equivalent in a formal sense, then comment on what I noticed.  Also, before anyone decides I’m beating up on one translation or another, I have a high regard for all three of these translations in the appropriate context.

    NRSV NLT CEV
    9And this is my prayer, that your love may overflow more and more with knowledge and full insight 10to help you to determine what is best, so that in the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless, 11having produced the harvest of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ for the glory and praise of God. 9I pray that your love will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in knowledge and understanding. 10For I want you to understand what really matters, so that you may live pure and blameless lives until the day of Christ’s return. 11May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation–the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ–for this will bring much glory and praise to God. 9I pray that your love will keep on growing and that you will fully know and understand 10how to make the right choices. Then you will still be pure and innocent when Christ returns. And until that day, 11Jesus Christ will keep you busy doing good deeds that bring glory and praise to God.

    I think both the NLT and the CEV have some difficulty keeping the relationships between the concepts clear. Obviously, how well one thinks each translation did at that task will depend on how one things those elements are related in Greek.

    So let me say how I hear this when I read it in Greek.  Paul starts from the point of love, but he is not merely saying that he wants love to grow in quantity.  He’s praying that their love will be filled with knowledge and insight.  When love is filled with knowledge and insight, one can discern what is most important, which leads in turn to pure and blameless living.  That in turn brings brings forth the fruit of righteousness, bring honor to Jesus, who brought all this forth in any case.

    Now I can find that in the NRSV, though I do acknowledge that many modern readers will have a hard time holding that long of a sentence together, so the readers may not benefit from it.  (Communication is not accomplished unless the recipient actually receives the message!)  The NLT, however, seems to me to make the growth in knowledge and understanding coordinate with, rather than part of, the growth of love.  Then “determining what is best” is the reason Paul wants them to grow in love.  I must note that I prefer the NLT’s “what really matters,” though I acknowledge the Greek will support either rendering.

    I think the CEV does a better job coordinating the growth of love and the knowledge and insight, but there the translation “make the right choices” seems to lose some of the nuance of the message.  Both the CEV and the NLT break what seems to me to be a tightly linked chain.

    Now I may be too picky here, and as I acknowledged at the start, I find it impossible to satisfy myself with a translation of this passage, along with a number of other long sentences from Paul.  I find elements to commend in all three translations, along with those I have questioned.

  • Paul not Lucid

    I must confess that quite frequently when I read J. K. Gayle’s writing, I’m quite mystified.  But today I was able to interact with what he wrote more effectively in his post Exactly what Paul Meant by “Sarx”.  Somewhere around the middle of that post he quotes C. S. Lewis from Reflections on the Psalms (p. 113 in his edition):

    Descending lower, we find a somewhat similar difficulty with St. Paul. I cannot be the only reader who has wondered why God, having given him so many gifts, withheld from him (what would to us seem so necessary for the first Christian theologian [albeit a formidable Jew]) that of lucidity and orderly exposition. (Reflections on the Psalms, page 113)

    He quotes more, and all of it is worthwhile.  I think there is a balance here in that it is easy either to start to ignore precision in translation and simply be sloppy, while at the same time it is easy to get arrogant.  I’m generally concerned when I hear pastors, especially those whose expertise in Greek is questionable, use the phrase “what the Greek really means here is …”  This generally means that we’re going to hear the preacher’s translation substituted for that of the committee that produced whatever version their reading as though somehow the individual preacher in the minimum time required for translation has earned the right to claim a translation that is “what the Greek really means.”

    I certainly feel free to disagree with translation committees or other translators or interpreters.  But this usage in sermons tends to suggest that one has the inside track on what a Bible writer was saying and that others, often much more qualified, have simply missed the boat.

    My impression on reading The Message was that Peterson very frequently manages very good translations of metaphors and imagery, yet when I read the teachings of Jesus, I thought he made them clearer than they were, so to speak.  Sometimes he took the sharp edges off and made them more friendly.  There is a point to leaving a difficult passage difficult.  At the same time it is much too easy to call a passage difficult because one is struggling to find an expression, and thus make the passage more difficult in translation than in the original.

  • Interesting NRSV-ESV Gender Usage

    The text is Psalm 127:3 –

    Sons are indeed a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.  (NRSV)

    Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. (ESV)

    The KJV also reads “children.”  I’m suspecting that the author of this Psalm was indeed talking about sons, because of the culture in which he wrote.  At the same time it’s interesting that NRSV switched to “sons” against most of the English versions, while the ESV stuck with “children.”

    Perhaps not too terribly significant, but interesting.

  • Halloween Book Burning and Barbecue

    OK, I’m very late on this one and you can find much more information at The Church of Jesus Christ where Polycarp has been following it.

    Here’s the video:

    I should, but can’t, resist posting my own YouTube video beside this one: Why I Hate the KJV:

    I guess you can tell what I think.

  • Retraction on NIV2011 Update

    With an tip of the hat to Peter Kirk, I withdraw objections to the NIV2011 update project.  Peter in turn links to this NIV 2011 FAQ.

    My objection to the update hinged on the idea that the TNIV was being bypassed in favor of going back to the 1984 NIV.  I saw (and still see) no reason why there needed to be a parallel update when the TNIV does such an excellent job.  With the affirmation (under Q27) that the TNIV text is not to be abandoned, my objection is no longer valid.

    I still believe that the church as a whole puts too much into American resources and too little overseas, but Biblica and the CBT are already doing what I would call for in providing for translation for other languages (see Q17).

    Thanks to Peter Kirk for his diligent work in keeping some of us slower folks up on the facts of this case.

  • Dynamic and Cognitive Equivalence

    Paul Helm of Helm’s Deep tries to take a philosophers approach to a discussion of dynamic equivalence in translation, and does not do a good job.

    My primary complaint is that, in apparently trying to clarify definitions of different translation procedures he fails to define the term he uses most, cognitive equivalence, while seeming to oppose a very vague notion of dynamic equivalence in translation.  He then proceeds to use the term “paraphrase” in an undefined manner as well.

    He points out, for example, that the term “dynamic equivalence” is somewhat metaphorical, because it comes from the world of physical mechanics.  Then he proceeds to misapply the metaphor and claim that it is incoherent.  Perhaps it is incoherent in the way he uses it, but I have yet to encounter an actual Bible translator who uses it in that fashion.

    For example, he states:

    … And what I claim is that there is no such thing as ‘dynamic equivalence’ achievable other than cognitive equivalence, and certainly it is not achievable through paraphrase, however ingenious and skilled the paraphraser may be.

    But what can the word “paraphrase” mean in this case?  Does it mean reordering the English words one uses after one constructs a word by word glossing of the text, in the way one might do in a first year Greek or Hebrew class?  That would be paraphrasing within one language.  One has to guess here, and perhaps the most coherent guess is that he means deviating from the word order of the original in some way, though that hardly makes sense in the context of translating.

    He blames this on the difference between a precisely measurable physical effect and the impact of words or phrases on the human mind:

    … The impacton the human mind of single words, phrases, and complete sentences, is obviously not physically mechanical, but it comes through the meaning or the perceived meaning, of the words. And so we should stick to the original words, translating or transliterating them as best we can.

    My question here is just which translator fails to note this difference between a physical activity and the way in which meaning works?  At the same time I must note that it is not necessarily the words themselves that produce “the meaning or the perceived meaning.”  In fact, from one language to another the very definition of the word “word” can become somewhat confusing.

    When translated word by word, a sentence might have a completely different meaning even when one has gotten some sort of equivalence for each individual word.  That very lack of precision which Helm claims prevents dynamic equivalent translation bedevils literal translation.  Two words in two different contexts are rarely, if ever, cognitively equivalent.  (For “cognitive” I’m using definition #2 from Dictionary.com.)  But much less are they dynamically equivalent.

    Take, for example, the controversial statement made by Jesus to his mother in John 2:4 — loosely transliterated ti emoi kai soi.  I could translate this word for word as “what to me and to you” but even then would I be satisfying Dr. Helm’s goal?  After all, I have already departed from word-for-word translation.

    You may say that I’m using a reductio ad absurdam, but I want to use that as a challenge to advocates of strictly literal translation to discover just where the boundary is.  Just where does literal translation become absurd?  My own boundary would be when the target audience of the translation finds it excessively difficult to discover the meaning.  I would leave out the word “excessively” except that I wish to leave room for the translation of concepts that are difficult.

    But in John 2:4 we have an idiom which was not intended to be obscure to Jesus’ audience, nor was it intended as obscure to John’s audience.  So in what way is it appropriate to leave it obscure to a modern audience?

    Yet in an earlier paragraph Dr. Helm says:

    … If the result of translation which aims at keeping to the original as faithfully as can be results in some puzzlement and ignorance when the text is read, so be it. …

    It seems to me that Dr. Helm views cognitive equivalence as possible, and then having made that assumption discovers that dynamic equivalence is more difficult and thus shouldn’t be attempted.  In his further explanation of that approach it appears to me that he is looking for single word equivalences in most cases, thus he says:

    … What if there’s no word for ‘righteousness’ or ‘atonement’ or ‘resurrection’? Maybe the best translation strategy in such circumstances is the transliteration of the word with the addition of a marginal note, which is the practice of the Study Bibles of today, and of the Geneva Bible of the Puritans.

    But on what basis does he believe cognitive equivalence requires one word to fill in for certain Greek or Hebrew words, such as those that might be translated ‘righteousness’ or ‘atonement’ or ‘resurrection.’  One senses that perhaps he has not struggled with the number of different words in the source languages that might be translated with those terms, and the number of other words with which they must be translated.  On what basis one cognitive equivalence require a one to one correspondence?  But unless I read him wrong, to write a multiple-word explanation of “righteousness” in a translation would automatically be out of bounds.

    I would suggest instead that if I use “being in a right relationship with God” for “righteousness” in some contexts, I could properly be criticized for using an incorrect phrase as equivalent, but not for using a phrase rather than a word.  And that would appear to be some “paraphrasing.”  As one who reads the text in its original languages, I sense this sort of “paraphrasing,” if it can be called that, as soon as translation begins.  A translator uses different words by virtue of the fact that he renders his translation in a different language.

    But my greater concern here is with the separation of cognitive equivalence from other forms of equivalence.  Separating the intellectual meaning from emotional and volitional is, in my view, not only impossible, but undesirable.  I like to tell my Bible study classes that we come to the Bible looking for information while God comes to the Bible looking for conversation.  That generalization is untrue, just like every other generalization, including this one!  But it does point to some truth.

    The very nature of the literature itself belies the notion that cognitive equivalence is adequate.  Is cognitive equivalence even of any value in poetry?  How much of the Biblical text is not intended to evoke something at the volitional level?

    Dr. Helm says near the beginning of his piece that he is avoiding the theological questions.  But those questions that must be answered if one is to develop a theory of how one translates “God’s word.”  If it is, in fact, the word of God, theology must be involved somewhere.

    I do not intend here a defense of all translations that are labeled “dynamic equivalent” nor necessarily of the term itself, though I do like it.  (‘Functional equivalence’ is preferred by many translators.)  There are some “dynamic” translations that are simply “dynamically inaccurate.”  Dynamic equivalence is not about allowing oneself to say whatever one wants.  Rather, it is about looking at the text as more than a sequence of words and trying to communicate the meaning of the text as accurately as possible to the target audience.

    There are certainly cases in which one must leave the readers to go immerse themselves in the concepts of the Bible–they are different.  But there are many cases when such an approach is simply a theological elitism that assumes that because a particular term has been used once, it must be used for all time.  Let the ignorant beware!