Threads from Henry's Web

Author: henry

  • Theological Blog for my Blogroll

    I found Theo Geek via Peter Kirk, and it was a very worthwhile find. Peter links to a number of posts in Andrew’s review of Pierced for our Transgressions. Having read them all, let me commend them to you. (I must disclose that I have not yet read PFOT. I do intend to as I can make the time. I think these review notes are worthwhile on their own account.)

    Well, the first (most recent) one isn’t precisely in the series, but it’s very interesting!

    Theo Geek goes on my blogroll.

  • Salvation Quote for the Day

    I spent a little bit of time today reading Eastern Orthodox material after some comments on previous posts caught my interest. So here’s an interesting quote that I found. I wonder how this sounds to other western ears?

    That Augustinian conception about a compulsory salvation or damnation is something inconceivable for Greek Patristic thought, something offensive to God; because it presupposes abolition of man’s self- conditioning ability,???????????. Westerners seem to have disregarded it so much that they did not care to coin a Latin word for translating this term, though ??????????? is the greatest gift of God, for it is the power which enables man to become man.

    Personal renewal is impossible without personal participation, without the contribution of that personal being who needs it. Before it becomes the aim and the task of human existence, it cannot become its property. Salvation is not a toy given to a spoiling child; it is a prize gained by an athlete. — Panayiotis Christou, from Myriobiblos Library: Notes on the subject of salvation

    To accompany that, it would be great to read this article by the same author on Gregory Palamas. I am claiming no more than my mornings searching as far as knowledge on this material, but I have found my reading thus far quite fascinating.

  • July 4

    I’m not doing a separate post her for July 4. I posted a story on my Jevlir Caravansary posing some questions about obedience, patriotism, and morality. You can post any comments about not quitting my day job there!

  • Eastern Orthodox Tradition and Atonement

    I want to promote some comments so that more people see them.

    Mark Olson (Pseudo-Polymath) commented on an earlier post:

    If you have the time, could you relate this statement

    First, no matter what stream of Christianity one belongs to, the atonement comes out somewhere near the center.

    With this:

    On the subject of the atonement, the Eastern Orthodox tradition has some quite different ideas to the Protestant tradition, and the whole paradigm of salvation tends to be very different. Many of the essential protestant concepts such as original sin, penal substitutionary atonement, and salvation by faith are not present, and instead other very different ideas tend to be utilized. The Eastern Orthodox church traces its tradition and teachings very strongly to the writings of the church fathers of the first millennia.

    Thanks, whether or not you choose to take me up on my question. 🙂

    Not take the question on? This is the sort of topic I live for, especially because it takes me well out of my normal lines of study. The link above is to a category, but the quote comes from a most interesting post, Guest Post: The Doctrine of the Atonement in the Early Greek Fathers.

    As I commented later in that thread, I read straight over the link, and thus asked Mark for more links.

    Here is my original response:

    I may need some clarification on the question. My argument for several weeks has been that the atonement is not defined by penal substitution, but rather that PSA is one metaphor among many and not the central metaphor.

    When I say atonement is near the center, I do not mean PSA. I see the incarnation as absolutely the center, expressed liturgically through the Eucharist and ethically through the two laws (love for God and love for neighbor) which get their Christian meaning from the incarnation. Atonement follows immediately from the incarnation, and can be described in various ways. Penal substitution isn’t even the only version of substitution.

    As an aside, were I asked to explain why Jesus had to die as Brian McLaren was, I would say that the incarnation would be incomplete if Jesus didn’t share all characteristics of his brethren, and experiencing death is an integral part of that.

    Thus I am rather happy to hear that the Eastern Orthodox tradition does not use penal substitution. I would love to read some of what they do. Could you recommend some eastern church fathers I should read and particular references? I’m more acquainted with the western fathers, though friends often tease me that I don’t know anything that happened after 100 AD. They’re not entirely wrong, either.

    This is a subject I’m always happy to discuss.

    As noted, I withdraw the request for links, though additional material would be helpful. I would like to quote a section from that same blog post as follows:

    The basic paradigm of salvation universally held by these writers [Greek fathers of the period 100-400 AD] is as follows:

    1. Humans have free will to engage in either vice or virtue, and the ability to become more or less virtuous over time.
    2. God is virtuous and desires humans to be also. He is pleased with virtue and displeased by vice.
    3. Christ taught virtue to mankind.
    4. By following Christ’s teachings, and by the help of the Spirit, we can progress and improve in virtue if we make the effort.
    5. All men have the ability to achieve a standard of virtue acceptable to God.
    6. The Final Judgment will be decided based on our level of virtue.

    OK, this sounds a great deal like Pelagianism, another view for which I have expressed some sympathy, though not total sympathy. I’ll have to try to get more precise on the comparison. It looks to me like I would differ from this formulation on a number of points, though not nearly by as much as most evangelicals would differ. This formulation leaves substantially less room for acceptance of PSA even as one metaphor for atonement.

    I don’t think it changes the basic notion of having atonement, derived from the incarnation, somewhere at the center of Christianity. It simply uses different metaphors, both of which I recognize and accept, to describe how atonement takes place.

    I hope by promoting these comments to a new post I will generate discussion. I’m really terribly weak on my acquaintance with eastern church fathers, though I’m working on remedying that.

  • My Wife has a Blog

    My wife Jody, author of two books, has started her own blog. She has previously been an occasional contributor to this blog, and has kept up a daily devotional list, but now has launched a more general opinion blog.

    She opened with her post on the causes and consequences of Paris Hilton’s recent activities.

  • Sensible Candidate Selection

    I found this article on ethics and choosing candidates while preparing Christian Carnival #179 over on my Participatory Bible Study Blog.

    Jeremy is discussing the issue of voting for a candidate who holds a position you might regard as immoral, for example a pro-lifer voting for a pro-choice candidate such as Rudy Giuliani, because the alternative would be worse. Many Christian pro-lifers would say that they could never vote for someone like that, but Jeremy thinks there is a good ethical basis to choose otherwise.

    I found his reasoning both interesting and helpful, because I so rarely find a candidate I actually like. There is always a question of who is better, or perhaps who is “less worse.” Jeremy formalizes and makes sense of the ethical reasoning involved.

    Check it out.

  • Christian Carnival #179

    Celebrating Independence Day, July 4 in the United States and Canada Day, July 1 in Canada (where else?).

    I’ve loosely grouped the posts under these quotes from the Federalist Papers. If you can’t find the connection, don’t overwork your brain on the matter. It’s just an excuse to print some of my favorite quotes on July 4! I may have moved a post simply to balance the numbers.

    Quick Administrative Notes: Speaking just for myself, it would help if everyone either used the submission form or included “Christian Carnival submission” in the subject line. My involvement in internet activities results in a huge amount of e-mail, most of which is sorted automatically. Some submissions that did not include “Christian Carnival” ended up where they didn’t belong, and I’m only assuming that I found them all.

    As a further point, I did not include some posts. There were submissions that were good, but substantially out of the date range, as in months out. There were also submissions of interesting articles but from sites with no Christian identification that I could find. If your site is Christian, and you submitted a post that was not included, you’ll need to take your virtual light out from under the cyber-bushel-basket thus allowing readers to be aware of the fact.

    That said, it was a joy to prepare this Christian Carnival. I always intend to read more entries, but hosting allows me to make it a duty to read them, and it’s a real pleasure. I’ve already selected several posts to comment on myself.

    People

    If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions. — Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #51

    Justin Merth presents Dealing with theological questions from your kids posted at In The Word.

    Kathryn presents Church is Too Formal for Today posted at The Peculiar Club. Is the Church getting too casual?

    Martin LaBar on Sun and Shield presents Immigration questions. It was written just before the apparent (second) death of the immigration bill in the US Senate, but the questions remain. Here’s his key point: “What is there about this issue that has galvanized some Christians into making this issue even more important than abortion? I really don’t understand this, or I’m afraid I do.”

    Allen Bethea presents Expected End » Faith: The Sine Qua Non of God’s Blessing posted at Expected End. He says, “I have been studying the ‘Law of Attraction’ and I see some things in this way that resonate with my understanding of Christianity. Faith is the ground of our relationship with God.

    Discernment

    In the first place, there is not a syllable in the plan under consideration which DIRECTLY empowers the national courts to construe the laws according to the spirit of the Constitution, or which gives them any greater latitude in this respect than may be claimed by the courts of every State. I admit, however, that the Constitution ought to be the standard of construction for the laws, and that wherever there is an evident opposition, the laws ought to give place to the Constitution. But this doctrine is not deducible from any circumstance peculiar to the plan of the convention, but from the general theory of a limited Constitution; and as far as it is true, is equally applicable to most, if not to all the State governments. There can be no objection, therefore, on this account, to the federal judicature which will not lie against the local judicatures in general, and which will not serve to condemn every constitution that attempts to set bounds to legislative discretion. — Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #81

    Nathanael presents The personally customizable Jesus, part 1 posted at Despair and Coffee.

    Michael presents Waiting on God?s Timing posted at Chasing the Wind. Ever feel as if you’re prayers go unanswered? We have to learn to trust in God’s perfect timing. Wait for it, it will not linger. A study of the book of Habakkuk.

    Mick presents Independence Day – July 4, 2007 posted at Romans 15:4 Project. Happy Independence Day America! “A nation ashamed of its ancestry will be despised by its posterity” Is America heading in the right direction, or is America despised because it has been ashamed of its Christian heritage?

    Everyone knows what a “Dead End” sign looks like, and what it is for. But what about “dead end” signs in life? This week John pens a few thoughts about recognizing the wrong paths in life in his post Dead Ends at Light Along the Journey.

    Debates

    The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. James Madison, Federalist #10

    Weekend Fisher starts with Jesus’ words “pray for those who persecute you” and continues with a liturgical responsive prayer for our enemies … and wonders why there isn’t a prayer for our enemies in our hymnals in Litany: for our enemies.

    At Bounded Irrationality we find How Christians Should Vote in which Doug Forrester examines whether Christians should vote (briefly) and then how they should they decide their vote.

    Jeremy Pierce presents Moderate Deontology: Voting for Giuliani posted at Parableman. If a pro-lifer votes for a pro-choice candidate, it is not necessarily a violation of the moral principles at stake.

    Matthew Anderson presents Three Cheers and a Jeer: In Defense of Praise Songs posted at Mere Orthodoxy.

    Rey from the Bible Archive addresses Justin’s “Christianty’s Downfall” series by answering a few of his earlier points with his post Dangerous
    Fundamentalism

    Business, Life, and Leadership

    There are appearances to authorize a supposition that the adventurous spirit, which distinguishes the commercial character of America, has already excited uneasy sensations in several of the maritime powers of Europe. They seem to be apprehensive of our too great interference in that carrying trade, which is the support of their navigation and the foundation of their naval strength. Those of them which have colonies in America look forward to what this country is capable of becoming, with painful solicitude. They foresee the dangers that may threaten their American dominions from the neighborhood of States, which have all the dispositions, and would possess all the means, requisite to the creation of a powerful marine. Impressions of this kind will naturally indicate the policy of fostering divisions among us, and of depriving us, as far as possible, of an ACTIVE COMMERCE in our own bottoms. This would answer the threefold purpose of preventing our interference in their navigation, of monopolizing the profits of our trade, and of clipping the wings by which we might soar to a dangerous greatness. . . .

    If we continue united, we may counteract a policy so unfriendly to our prosperity in a variety of ways. . . . — Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 11

    Alli Diller presents Business Lessons from the ‘Wife of Noble Character’ posted at God & Mammon.

    Brian Russell wrote Key Transitions for Missional Leaders on the Real Meal blog. In this essay, Brian describes key shifts that communities of faith need to make to embody a missional mindset in the 21st century.

    Amanda presents A Simpler Way posted at Imago Dei. Get ready, because I’m going to start repainting what I know and do regarding Christianity.

    Daniel Condurachi presents How To Stay Stong posted at Daniel Condurachi’s Blog.

    Adam Faughn presents Why I Like “The One Year Bible” posted at The Faughn Family of Four.

    And for our neighbors to the north . . .

    Americans should never underestimate the constant pressure on Canada which the mere presence of the United States has produced. We’re different people from you and we’re different people because of you. Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is effected by every twitch and grunt. It should not therefore be expected that this kind of nation, this Canada, should project itself as a mirror image of the United States. — Pierre Trudeau

  • Smartypants Notions Like Cosmic Child Abuse

    Somehow it seems as thought advocates of penal substitutionary atonement (PSA) as the key model of the atonement (I’d prefer metaphor) can’t stay kind and respectable. I wonder why it is that those of us who think that one needs to consider the character of God in terms of love, mercy, and forgiveness as well as justice, and who are concerned with careless formulations, are somehow less pious.

    I was really not planning to post any more on this topic for awhile, but then Adrian Warnock quoted this from J. I. Packer:

    Since all this was planned by the holy Three in their eternal solidarity of mutual love, and since the Father’s central purpose in it all was and is to glorify and exalt the Son as Saviour and Head of a new humanity, smartypants notions like “divine child abuse”, as a comment on the cross, are supremely silly, and as irrelevant and wrong as they could possibly be. [emphasis (color) from Adrian’s quote]

    But it’s not theologically educated opponents who are generally missing the point here. It is careless formulations that are being heard regularly in the pews as something very similar to cosmic child abuse. Some people like it, because it allows them to proclaim a tough God. They want the God of justice to put fear into the next generation. Others are driven away by it. It’s not the critics who have a problem here. It’s the proponents.

    I understand the trinity and the incarnation quite well. That’s why I’m disturbed by formulations that do sound very much like cosmic child abuse. It’s pointless for theologians who are writing for a lay audience to say things like “God’s wrath was poured out on his innocent son instead of on the guilty people who deserved it” and then complain that if people really understood the trinity, they’d realize it is really God pouring his wrath on himself. If people don’t understand the trinity–and you’ll find a crowd of folks in the pews who don’t–then they’re going to hear that sentence incorrectly and get the wrong idea about God.

    In fact, if they really do understand the trinity, I think they’ll have to see that PSA must be a metaphor. It elucidates part of the problem, but if you try to make it stand on all four, it just doesn’t fully make sense. Now not fully making sense isn’t entirely a bad thing. That just shows that a full understanding of the atonement remains outside our human grasp.

    If you want to call that a “smartypants” response, that’s your privilege and also Packer’s. But I think that dismissive attitude is dangerous. (Note that much of Packer’s article itself avoids the difficulties in phraseology to which I’m referring. He simply seems to ignore the problem of other formulations to which critics may respond. Of course, I still do disagree with him on making PSA central, but I do think he formulates PSA appropriately.)

    After having been annoyed by that quote, I also read this one by Peter Kirk. I think he deals well with Carson’s material. I would simply add that I prefer the word “metaphor” to “model.” “Models” need to be worked together into a single whole, or at least that is the feeling I get with the word. Metaphors can illustrate different parts and need not necessarioly stand on all four feet.

  • Adrian Warnock has a new URL

    I’ve updated my blogroll, and now y’all need to know that Adrian Warnock has a new URL (adrianwarnock.com).

  • Libby Sentence Commuted

    According to the Washington Post, President Bush has commuted former Cheney aid I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby. He left intact probation provisions and the fine.

    I greet this news with mixed emotions. On the one hand I’m tired of lengthy investigations in Washington that produce nothing but convictions for lying to investigators and grand juries. Consider what happened to President Clinton under those circumstances. At the same time, lying to investigators is a pretty serious problem, and what’s more, in this case the issue is the leaking of an important piece of classified information. With Cheney’s office right now behaving as though they are above the law on that point, I dislike sending the signal that this type of behavior is OK.

    For the most part, it appears that nobody will be held responsible for the actual crime.