This review is way off my beaten track, but I’ve read much of the material referenced, except for the main player, Carson’s book. I find the issues interesting. On most of them I would come out quite liberal. I was interested in the summary of emerging/emergent issues as sometimes I have a hard time differentiating liberal or just plain creative from emerging.
Category: Christianity
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Lakeland Revival Notes
A number of my friends have commented to me on the revival in Lakeland, Florida at Ignited Church, some positively, some with questions, and some critically. Some have seen opposition that is already represented on the web, such as you find here.
I have not attended or watched the revival in Lakeland, and I don’t expect I will be visiting soon, though watching is more of an option. I have a pretty strong schedule of local involvement right now, and I believe that’s what I’m called to do. But for those who would like a first hand report, I asked a friend who attended meetings at Lakeland to comment.
Rev. Perry Dalton was the pastor of Pine Forest United Methodist Church at the time I returned to faith and church back in 1994. He was pastor of Pine Forest during the time of the Brownsville Revival, and has endured a great deal of criticism at the time. (You can see my own experience relating to the Brownsville Revival in this article on my personal testimony.) He is a friend and co-author with me of the book I Want to Pray!. He has attended services at Lakeland. I asked him to provide me with some comments which he did and graciously gave me permission to quote. I will quote his comments in full.
Please note that while comments on this post will be open, I’m neither going to defend the revival there nor will I join in any attack simply because I am not equipped to do so. The exception would be something that is based on an inappropriate theological starting point. I’m providing this comment for the benefit of my friends and other readers.
From Perry Dalton:
Thanks for your note. I’ll try to give you some things about my experience at Lakeland. I am getting ready to leave for NYC/UN to celebrate Israel’s 60th birthday. So it will be brief.
My experience at Lakeland was awesome. It is nothing like Brownsville. Everything about this move of God will drive everyone’s religious spirits crazy. Nothing fits the normal church theology. God just shows up and melts people. I was sitting there enjoying the worship and heard the Holy Spirit say “You are no longer retired”. The presence of God was so powerful I could hardly stand it.
Brownsville had more than its share of critics, but this is way beyond that. So far beyond it that the critics will not have to look for things to criticize. Todd Bentley does not preach. It just calls out healings. He will give an invitation. But the invitation is so simple and so short that it will seem inadequate and yet people make decisions every night. The invitation is simple, sweet and easy to understand.
If you have not seen Todd, he is tattooed all over. He dresses in jeans and motorcycle shirts. His interns as he calls them are people that appear to be right off the street with no training (maybe like the disciples). But, they demonstrate that they love the Lord. Since, I have been home I have continued to tune into God TV that is broadcasting this all over the world and moved their regular programing so that they can broadcast it. I have not heard any thing come from Todd’s mouth that is not biblical. It is different but still true to the Word.
Todd gives God all the glory.It is almost as powerful on TV as being there in person, at least for me.
I recommend that everyone who wants to make a commitment of more of themselves to the Lord, to go! If you go as a spectator you will come away only with disappointment and criticisms, which only hurts the critic. The healings are awesome. Are some fake? Probably. Are some real? Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was impressed with the number of really small children being healed and really old people 90 year olds being healed.
As long as God gets the glory, I believe this will continue to grow around the world. It is already broadcast into 214 nations with close to a 1/2 billion viewers.
You are welcome to use any or all of this. Just keep it in context. I am in no way a critic of this move. God is free to do whatever he chooses.
Many people are quite shocked to find out that I have anything positive to say about Brownsville because my theology is somewhat different from theirs. I’m not called either a “liberal charismatic” or “passionate moderate” for nothing! But part of my view of Christian moderation is the acceptance of God’s working in a great variety of ways. In my view all activities of the Holy Spirit will show both human and divine elements. I will not go through a list of doctrines, check off the ones with which I disagree, and then condemn the ministry or movement. I prefer discussing particular teachings or actions rather than people or whole ministries, and the fact that I disagree with a particular teaching doesn’t mean I condemn the person holding it or the ministry in which he or she is engaged.
Despite theological disagreements, my experience with Brownsville was positive, and my recommendation to anyone questioning at the time was to go check it out. I’d say the same thing about this one, sight unseen.
Let me provide a couple of links here.
- Revival: Benefits and Dangers
This is a cautionary article I wrote during the Brownsville Revival. Oddly enough I got favorable comments about it from both supporters and critics of the revival. - Ten Things I Believe about the Holy Spirit
While I don’t like criticizing whole movements and ministries, it is rare that I find something I can endorse without qualification. This list from Dave Warnock, a Methodist minister in England, is on the mark. I agree with it 100%. - A Foundation for Thinking
First of a two part series I wrote for my wife’s devotional list dealing with Genesis 1:1-2. You may miss what I’m saying about the Holy Spirit until you read the second part. - Wind of God – Chaos to Order
- Revival: Benefits and Dangers
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The Bible as an Idol?
Via the blogroll on Gavin’s Various Musings I found Evolving in Monkey Town, and right there at the top was this post on making the Bible an idol. How could I resist continuing to read?
After I had read far enough I came across the following quote:
I believe that the primary purpose of the Bible is to equip us to do good works, not to help us win arguments, not prove other people wrong, and not to support our own lusts for power or domination of others.
Precisely!
Rachel is working from 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and I have often suggested to people that you won’t understand this passage if you stop after “All scripture is God-breathed . . .” (or however your translation renders “theopneustos”). You have to look at verse 17 to get the thrust of the whole thing.
While I am loathe to use the word “idolatry” except for people who have elevated the book above the God of the book, this post provides some excellent food for thought. I’m also adding Evolving in Monkey Town to my blogroll.
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Spirit Lite – Recommended Reading
This blog post on seeking spirituality is excellent. Go read it! (HT: 42).
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UMC General Conference Endorses Clergy Letter Project
I’m a little behind the power curve on this one, but I found out about these via an e-mail from Michael Zimmerman of the Clergy Letter Project.
The first resolution is #80990 (tracking) which includes the line:
* endorses The Clergy Letter Project and its reconciliatory programs between religion and science, and urges United Methodist clergy participation;
That one goes in the Social Principles, and the legislative tracking shows it as adopted.
Even though the letter tells me the following two were passed, I don’t see them adopted or placed on one of the consent calendars according to the tracking. Perhaps one of my more politically savvy UM readers might comment on the procedure or where I may have looked in the wrong place.
Resolution #80050 (tracking)added the line:
We find that sciences descriptions of cosmological, geological, and biological evolution are not in conflict with theology.
… to ¶160 E in the Book of Discipline, amongst other changes.
And finally, #800839 (tracking) added the following to the Book of Resolutions:
WHEREAS, the United Methodist Church has for many years supported the separation of church and State (paragraph 164, Book of Discipline, 2004, p. 119),
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the General Conference of the United Methodist Church go on record as opposing the introduction of any faith-based theories such as Creationism or Intelligent Design into the science curriculum of our public schools.
I should probably pay more attention to my own church’s politics, especially since I regard church politics as necessary. But to be honest, I’m just terrible at keeping up with these things. Nonetheless, I am pleased by this result, even if it is only the first of the three.
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Intimidation by Divine Wrath
Some Christians resort to an argument of intimidation by divine judgment and wrath when the going gets tough. I read this most recently in a comment on YouTube, in which the writer simply quoted Bible texts implying first that people were wrong, and second that God was going to do something about it.
Those texts didn’t specify that I was wrong, or that my accuser was right; taken out of context as they were, they didn’t specify the topics on which God would get you if you were wrong; they simply suggested that people who were wrong might well be in trouble.
This method is intended to make the person who is less sure of himself give in because of the fear of divine retribution. On the surface, the person using it is so absolutely certain he is right, that he believes the other person will flinch, being less certain. But there’s another element to it. He must also believe that the other person secretly knows he is wrong and is simply holding onto a position out of sheer perversity.
Our hypothetical debater believes that the atheist with whom he is arguing is really a closet theist who refuses to acknowledge belief in God because he doesn’t want to obey. Perhaps if he is threatened with judgment enough times he will come to acknowledge how wrong he is. The more liberal Christian, in his view, truly knows that fundamentalism is true, but has been deceived by the spirit of the age. Again, he will flinch if confronted with the potential wrath of God.
This isn’t a conservative/liberal type of approach, however. Many very conservative Christians are attacked by other seekers of absolute certainty who regard them as liberal, or just plain wrong in some other way.
I’ve heard this approach to debate many times. Sometimes it comes in the form of “doubting your salvation” because your theology isn’t correct, at others in the more direct form of telling you that you will have to face God’s judgment.
What I was thinking today, however, is that despite its surface appearance, this approach doesn’t come from a position of supreme confidence, but rather one of profound doubt, but doubt which cannot be admitted. Those who believe that they have to have certain doctrinal positions correct in order to be right with God, or to gain some eternal reward can become quite tense about the possibility of being wrong. After all, the penalty for an error here runs all the way to eternity in hell!
And please don’t remind me of salvation by faith. I had a young man question my salvation after he had spent an hour preaching to me about salvation by grace through faith without works of any kind. Then because I didn’t quite understand the words that he did, he said he was concerned about my salvation. I guess it wasn’t just grace and faith, but also a full theological understanding of them!
Being both uncertain and terrified of the penalty of being wrong, such people would have to get into the habit of never thinking they are wrong. I, on the other hand, have been wrong so many times, it is certainly no remarkable event. I suspect the people who have used this on me cannot imagine that I am unconcerned with being wrong, and that I’m simply waiting for someone to actually show me that I am.
I think this one works a bit like an insult. When someone you don’t respect insults you, you are hardly hurt by it. When someone threatens you with something you do not fear, it also doesn’t concern you.
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Responding to the Evangelical Manifesto
I never refer to myself as an evangelical, but occasionally others do for reasons that are largely unfathomable to me (except a few from across the pond that make some sense), so I usually take a look at documents that come out relating to evangelicalism. I’m always interested in the potential for finding one of these documents that I could go along with 100%. Of course, I realize that if that happened, there would also be a number of evangelicals who would say that the document, statement, or in this case manifesto was inadequate.
I have read the entire manifesto (HT: evangelical outpost) and not just the summary, and I find very little in there to which I would want to respond. First, very few evangelicals of my acquaintance would accept that manifesto as adequately expressing their own confession of faith. The few who would are in the United Methodist Church and go a bit light on some of the elements, such as penal substitution. (Note that I am using “evangelical” as a reference to those who would self-identify as such.) I would expect that the expression on the inspiration of scripture would be considered a bit weak by many. One can read inerrancy there if one tries, but it’s not terribly clear. If I wanted to interpret with great latitude, I could fit my own view of scripture in there. I imagine there will be some who will do so.
Second, I think the idea of rescuing terms is a very hazardous business. The statement from page 4 illustrates this point. “There are grave dangers in identity politics, but we insist that we ourselves, and not scholars, the press, or public opinion, have the right to say who we understand ourselves to be.” The problem here is that I have to first decide who is a “real” evangelical before I know who to ask for a definition. You may think this is nitpicking, but I know evangelicals (by their self-identification) who believe that most evangelicals aren’t really evangelicals any more. Personally I take as a starting place those who are in the majority of a group, and thus break out of the circle, but it does create a problem. I’m left to wonder if evangelicalism as stated in this manifesto is similar to an older evangelicalism. Are they defining a new position, returning to an old one, or something between?
Such expressions as “Yet we hold to Evangelical beliefs that are distinct from the other traditions in important ways distinctions that we affirm because we see them as biblical truths that were recovered by the Protestant Reformation, sustained in many subsequent movements of revival and renewal, and vital for a sure and saving knowledge of God in short, beliefs that are true to the Good News of Jesus” (pages 4-5), equivocate between recovering something old and latching on to something new at some point.
I would have to say that if I read the affirmations on scripture and salvation as I believe the authors meant them, I could not adopt this statement as my own. I could be wrong on the way they meant those statements. They could even be trying to provide latitude to someone like me. That’s just not how I read it.
I would add simply that I find the description of liberalism (pages 8-9) to be largely a strawman, though I’m afraid I would not be very likely to persuade evangelicals of that. I often think conservatives are just going along with the culture, while liberals are arguing against the tide, but part of each position seems to be a different perception of the tide.
In any case, this is an interesting manifesto, as much for what it doesn’t say as for what it does. Whether it will accomplish any of the goals its authors set out to accomplish is another matter. I’m doubtful that it will.
Here’s some reaction links from Moderate Christian bloggers. Most of it is more positive than mine.
* = updates after initial post
- if i were a bell, i’d ring >> Evangelical Manifesto
- Through a Glass Darkly >> An Evangelical Manifesto
- C.Orthodoxy >> An Evangelical Manifesto
- [stpaulswired.org] Thoughts from the Journey >> An Evangelical Manifesto
- *Everyday Liturgy >> The Good, The Bad, and the Evangelical Manifesto
Any other members of the Moderate Christian Blogroll can leave comments if I missed your post, and I’ll promote the links to the body of the post. My observation thus far is that the bulk of the moderate bloggers are responding more positively to this than I am.
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Christian Carnival CCXXIII – Tabernacle Edition
Welcome to the Christian Carnival, tabernacle edition.
Why use the tabernacle? In my teaching I have found that the tabernacle and its services are almost infinitely useful, often illustrating things that one might not assume from the text. I identify as carefully as I can when I’m being strictly exegetical, and when I’m using the imagery to help get across other lessons. As an example, see my talk The Sin of Getting Stuck, in which I use the tabernacle as an illustration of progress in one’s Christian walk–clearly not exegetical, yet the tabernacle lends itself to this. (Note that this is a little over an hour long video, so unless you’re patient, skip it! Audio is also an option.)
I have attached posts to various sections. There is no greater and lesser holiness implied. For example, Outside the Camp is for posts about witness and our relationship to the world. The camp itself is for daily living. In front of the gate is where many debates and confrontations took place. In the courtyard was a place for learning as the Israelites carried out God’s great teaching program. I reserve At the Altar of Sacrifice for items related to atonement and salvation, and The Holy Place for worship related items. Hopefully I’ve placed your post well.
The pictures here are from http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/Tabernacle, whose author gives kind permission to use them non-commercially on each page. I have only chosen a very small number, and I’ve had to reduce their resolution, so I recommend going and looking at the results of his hard work.
In the Camp
Rodney Olsen presents Keeping Pets in Perspective posted at RodneyOlsen.net. As Christians, what should our attitudes be towards pets?
William Meisheid presents Seeking Solidarity posted at Beyond The Rim…. A critique of Peggy Noonan’s article on the Wright-Obama controversy.
Richard H. Anderson presents Rewriting Tabitha posted at dokeo kago grapho soi kratistos Theophilos.
GP presents Fear is your Friend posted at Innstyle Montana- Your Home on the Range. Horses teach us Isaiah 41:10 (look it up!).
In the Courtyard
Ade Sobanjo presents 5 Reasons why Sex before Marriage is dangerous !!! posted at Celebration of Love.
Jeremy Pierce presents Adam and Eve’s Race posted at Parableman. Is it meaningful to ask what race Adam and Eve were?
Trevor McKay presents Dating And Courting… What’s The Difference? posted at The Christian Dating Chronicles.
Pete presents Money and your prayer life: Do you pray about your finances? posted at Bible Money Matters. Is it important to pray about your finances?
Weekend Fisher presents Scoring the books of the canon: cumulative scores at Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength After looking at a series of early lists of Christian writings, here Weekend Fisher shows the cumulative scores for how well attested each book is. The final answer on which books are best-attested historically will be no surprise to Christians — but may disturb conspiracy theorists who claim that the canon of Scripture was nothing more than an exercise in political power or an arbitrary set of books that could easily have been otherwise.
I present here my post Hosting Bible Translations Wiki right here at Participatory Bible Study Blog. This is an open invitation to sign up and get involved in creating a solid encyclopedia of Bible translations, editions, canon, and topics related to creating the Bible edition you use.
Outside the Camp
Crystal Nichols presents 7 ways to live in harmony with your coworkers posted at Christian in the Corporate World. We are commanded to love each other, that includes our coworkers, too! Here are some easy ways to show Christ’s love to you coworkers.
Angela Williams Duea presents Go With God, Immigrant posted at angelawd. Illegal immigration is a loaded topic, but we’re still challenged to love the individuals God places before us.
Jody Neufeld presents Are you challenged to THINK on Sunday mornings? which is actually an introduction to her three part series on witnessing which she wrote after she heard a particularly challenging sermon on the subject.
At the Altar of Sacrifice
Scott Clair presents Is the recognition of sin important? posted at Anticipating the King. This article deals with whether or not the recognition of sin is important when evangelizing.
Ken Brown presents On Sin and Atonement posted at C.Orthodoxy.
A review of the film Atonement, focusing on its elucidation of the corporate nature of evil and the impossibility of atoning for one’s own sins.John at Brain Cramps for God writes On Depravity and Obedience. It seems many times folks just do not understand what “total depravity” really means; nor do they understand why Christians actually strive to obey the “rules”.
David Porter presents Shall we continue to sin or can we change? posted at A Boomer in the Pew.
At the Gate
simplyeddie presents First Principles posted at Simple Life In Christ. He says: “Hope you like this article! It’s my first submission to Blog Carnival.” Welcome Eddie!
Diane R presents Angry Young Christians? posted at Crossroads: Where Faith and Inquiry Meet. Why are there so many angry young adult Christians nowadays?
Holy Place
Chad Dalton presents There is a place posted at Living Stone Bible Church Blog.