Threads from Henry's Web

Category: Christianity

  • Speaking in Tongues and Prayer Language

    In a comment, Kris asks:

    Hi! Can someone tell me if I can start another post rather than comment on someone else’s post? If so, how do I do that? I would like to discuss the question of Holy Ghost tongues and whether we should pray in an unknown language as Christians or if it was simply something that was used as a sign in the early church for the unbelieving gentiles; and also the question of whether tithe is a new testament commandment or not.

    Part of the answer, of course, is that this is one of my personal blogs and therefore only I can write new posts, but I’m going to go ahead a provide a post on this topic and see who would like to discuss it.  This post will be on the gift of tongues, particularly where it is interpreted as a prayer language rather than speaking an earthly foreign language not known to the speaker.

    I’m not going to write much here, except to say that I believe one can receive a spiritual gift of a prayer language, that in accordance with 1 Corinthians 12, this gift is not for everyone, and according to 1 Corinthians 14, this gift is not for use in the public worship service, at least as a general rule.

    Because of this I do not believe that there is a necessary separate experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  Anyone who accepts Christ has already received the Holy Spirit.  One can, however, experience the Holy Spirit in special ways at various points in one’s Christian experience.

    I have edited the following pamphlets that relate to these topics.  These do not 100% reflect my own views.  I edited these from the input of a number of people in the charismatic movement within Methodism.  They are fairly close to my own view, however.

    I Want the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (pamphlet)

    Spiritual Gifts:  Speaking in Tongues (pamphlet)

    Gifts and Offices (pamphlet)

    Thoughts on Lists of Spiritual Gifts

    1 Corinthians 12-14

    1 Corinthians 12-14 Greek Terms

    Notes on 1 Corinthians 12

    Notes on 1 Corinthians 13

    Notes on 1 Corinthians 14

    I would call that a fair amount of reading!

    If we have a good response to this post, I will provide another for discussion of tithing.

  • He Died for Us – St. John Chrysostom

    From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian church via Hebrews: Ancient Christian commentary on Scripture, New Testament X, commenting on Hebrews 9:15-17.

    How did he become mediator? He brought words from God and brought them to us, conveying what came from the Father and adding his own death.  We had offended; we ought to have died.  He died for us and made us worthy of the covenant.  By this is the covenant secure, in that henceforward it is not made for the unworthy. — ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS 16.2

    What I particularly like about this quote is the combination of “bringing the words” with the added death on the cross.  The mission of Jesus Christ was atonement, but that involved more than his death on the cross–not less than or other than, but more than.

    In addition, he clearly states the weakness of the old covenant.  It was human beings who were unable to keep the covenant.  In a sense, we keep the new covenant in Jesus.

  • Another Honest Creationist

    … and he really is a creationist. His name is Todd C. Wood, he teaches at Bryan College in Dayton Tennessee, and he blogs at the creatively named Todd’s Blog.

    Now for reasons that may have something to do with the college’s name and location, Bryan College often strikes people as an obscurantist sort of place, determined to set education back by a century. My own experience belies that reputation. I was introduced to Bryan College by a Hebrew student who was a Presbyterian Church in America youth pastor. He needed a year of Hebrew for ordination and took it from me. During that time I also heard the president of Bryan College speak and explain some of his views on education.

    Through those connections I became aware of Dr. Kurt Wise, author of Faith, Form, and Time (link is to my review), which is the one book on young age creationism I recommend if you are only going to read one on the topic. (Dr. Wise prefers “young age” to “young earth” as he is in fact dealing with the age of the universe.)

    Now my main reason for calling Dr. Wise, and now Dr. Wood “honest creationists” is not how they deal with the scientific evidence, though that is good to see. In fact, I read quite a number of posts by Dr. Wood before linking to this one, because I don’t like to pile on with the “how honest of this poor creationist to say that we’re right” line. At that point it’s like saying “This creationist is a good guy because he sees the evidence for evolution, but stubbornly refuses to believe it.”

    But I believe it’s very much different when we understand just why these men will stand up to what they acknowledge is a large body of evidence. Their epistemology starts elsewhere. They have a higher source of knowledge. They believe that revealed knowledge, as in scripture, has precedence. I may disagree, but it’s nice to have it laid out in plain words.

    The particular point of honesty–and I know there are a number more creationists that will agree here–is that both Dr. Wise and Dr. Wood acknowledge, or better proclaim that their starting point is scripture, and what’s more a particular understanding of it. Quoth Dr. Wood:

    It starts with going back to the most basic convictions about origins that I have. For me, that starts with my convictions about the mode of scriptural inspiration, i.e. verbal, plenary inspiration. I don’t believe that the Bible is merely a human book that contains the word of God. I believe it is the Word of God. I also do not accept the modern and popular doctrine of accommodation, which basicallys says that by putting His revelation into human language, God was forced to use terms that were not precisely accurate. As a result, science takes an active role in interpreting the Scripture, since any part may be accommodated and therefore not literally true.

    Now I profoundly disagree with that, but what I find dishonest in the work of some creationists is that they try to claim that simply doing science, starting from its current state, one can conclude that the universe was created recently (6000 or so years) and quickly. In order to make a political point and get creationism in the public school curriculum, they cut their view off from its foundation.

    Now as I understand it, both Dr. Wise and Dr. Wood maintain that with the proper research and time and effort to produce the necessary body of scientific work, a sound scientific foundation can be made. In his book which I previously mentioned, Dr. Wise makes a point of listing things that need to be researched in order to produce such a theory.

    Now I profoundly disagree with their understanding of scripture and of the relationship of scripture and science. I don’t even see my view as accommodation. I believe scripture does not address science, and that this is because God never intended to address science through scripture. But it’s nice to have that out at a start. That’s what I call being honest.

    Two people can say that they believe the Bible, yet that is really meaningless until we know just what each one believes about the Bible.

    So I’ve added a subscription to Todd’s Blog to my Google reader, and I’m enjoying his posts.

  • Top 3 Weak Consensus Views

    OK, I’m going to get into trouble (perhaps) for linking to the same guy twice in a row, but I starred two of his posts in a row in Google reader, and that’s out of 281 subscriptions, so something must have clicked.

    In any case, Doug Mangum lists three weak consensus positions, Q as the source of Matthew and Luke, the association of Khirbet Qumran with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Chicago Statement as the final word on inerrancy.  Commenters have questioned all three of these, but I think the choices are fairly good.

    I’d probably have put source theory of the Pentateuch (JEDP) on that list. Though I would actually favor some sort of similar scheme with a major revision of the dating, it is hardly one that should be assumed as firm.  I think there is no doubt that each of these 3 (now 4) items should be questioned.  The difficult question is whether they are a consensus at this time, and that depends on just who is said to form the consensus.

    I think even the best consensus should be challenged from time to time, if nothing else to make folks dust off the reasons it became a consensus in the first place.  Then we can examine just how well those reasons hold up.

  • Of Strategies and Goals

    As if it isn’t bad enough that we Christians many times cannot agree on what is essential and thus get carried away with arguments about minor details, we also sometimes have a problem distinguishing talking about a strategy from the actual goals. So we sometimes condemn brothers or sisters for disagreeing with the goals, when actually they simply differ on strategy.

    Because I don’t knock on strangers’ doors in order to hand them gospel tracts, does this mean I don’t care about evangelism? To many people it means precisely that. If you don’t pursue their goals with their preferred strategy, you don’t actually believe in the goal.

    Polycarp of The Church of Jesus Christ blog experienced just that when he wrote in opposition to the Manhattan Declaration.

    Because he opposes a declaration that opposes abortion, he must therefore support abortion, right? Well, not so much. You’ll find, in fact, that there are many reasons one might opposed this particular declaration, other than disagreeing with its goals.

    For my part I pretty much dislike declarations and such documents, few of which have any real impact. They just become another opportunity to impose litmus tests.

    In the meantime, just remember that opposing a particular way of accomplishing a goal doesn’t mean that one thinks the goal undesirable.

    Personally, I think that we Christians should consider the gospel the primary solution to moral problems. In fact, I think that when we go straight at moral problems with another strategy it’s as though we chose to try to crush a boulder with one of our bare hands whilst holding a jackhammer in the other.

    The gospel is the jackhammer. And no, I don’t believe those who disagree with me are necessarily opposed to the gospel or to various moral goals.

  • John Cassian on Bible Reading

    John Cassian was a monk and ascetic writer from Gaul and lived in the late 4th and early 5th centuries AD [source].  I found this in Hebrews: Ancient Christian commentary on Scripture, New Testament X, though I went to the Order of Saint Benedict Lectio site for the translation I use here:

    YOU must then, if you want to get at the true knowledge of the Scriptures, endeavour first to secure steadfast humility of heart, to carry you on by the perfection of love not to the knowledge which puffeth up, but to that which enlightens. For it is an impossibility for an impure mind to gain the gift of spiritual knowledge. And therefore with every possible care avoid this, lest through your zeal for reading there arise in you not the light of knowledge nor the lasting glory which is promised through the light that comes from learning but only the instruments of your destruction from vain arrogance. Next you must by all means strive to get rid of all anxiety and worldly thoughts, and give yourself over assiduously or rather continuously, to sacred reading, until continual meditation fills your heart, and fashions you so to speak after its own likeness, making of it, in a way, an ark of the testimony,which has within it two tables of stone, i.e., the constant assurance of the two testaments;and a golden pot, i.e., a pure and undefiled memory which preserves by a constant tenacity the manna stored up in it, i.e., the enduring and heavenly sweetness of the spiritual sense and the bread of angels; moreover also the rod of Aaron, i.e., the saving standard of Jesus Christ our true High Priest, that ever buds with the freshness of immortal memory. … [emphasis mine]

    As always, I strongly recommend going to the referenced site and reading the larger passage in context.  I find the use of thetemple/tabernacle imagery here in connection with the spiritual life extremely interesting.

  • Why both Bock and Borg are on my Ready-Reading Shelf

    I have been wanting to respond further to the excellent discussion over at Reclaiming the Mind, to which I linked a couple of days ago, but I’m not really an academic, and Karl Barth notwithstanding, I’m not really a theologian either. (I now am close to 100 comments behind on keeping up with the thread a Reclaiming the Mind. It’s a great discussion.)

    Nonetheless, I’ve been involved in Christian education at the congregational level for many years, most of my life, in fact, and I’m an avid consumer of Biblical scholarship. I think that the attitudes that folks are discussing there are evident in places other than academia. They show up in the books I read and often in Sunday School classes that I teach. So here goes with some comments from outside the academic environment.

    Some points:

    1. Much of the discussion has centered on Dr. Wallace’s definition of a Christian. We have gotten so sensitive to definitions, that it seems that to define is to discriminate. If you think about it, defining is discriminating. Any definition includes some and excludes others.

      If Dr. Wallace had defined “scholar” so that it only included Christians who hold something like his own views, then I think that would have significant. He would be trying to exclude on a basis similar to the one about which he was complaining. But he didn’t do that.

      I might have a slightly broader definition of Christian, but any definition includes some and excludes others. If we didn’t do that, we couldn’t communicate. By letting us know his definition, Dr. Wallace let’s us understand what he has to say, which hardly seems inappropriate.

    2. In just about any group of people based on ideas there will be some who narrowly define an “in” and an “out” group. I experienced this in my own graduate education when a professor refused even to talk to me after he read a paper I had written (not for one of his classes, fortunately!) because I was using comparative material and critical methodologies to excess. As the story was related to me, he managed to prevent publication of the paper as well. But the key point is this: I learned a great deal from that professor as well.
    3. Presuppositions abound on all sides, and sometimes we just suppose things that others have studied because we have to start from somewhere. But there is great value in examining such presuppositions and making sure we are supposing things that really need to be supposed rather than examined and established. Interaction between people with different presuppositions sometimes forces such examination.

    I think there is a distressing lack of building basic foundations in much of the literature, particularly literature written for a popular audience. Thus folks in Sunday Schools in both liberal and conservative churches believe that they are simply following the best scholarship, but they are often reading material that comes from a completely different set of scholars in each case, and those sets don’t agree.

    In one Sunday School class in which I discussed historical Jesus research, the members generally had read something by one of the Jesus Seminar scholars, or someone with a similar approach, and they were very surprised to learn about scholars who disagreed not only with the details of any particular reconstruction, but also with the method by which the reconstruction was done.

    In another class, members expected that I would dismiss Jesus Seminar material out of hand. They just wanted to hear that they didn’t have to concern themselves with any of that stuff. When I tried to explain the idea of criteria for historicity to them, I might as well have begun speaking Greek. They didn’t want to ask why one would take such an approach.

    Both of these classes were in United Methodist churches within the same general area. There was an obvious difference in what these various people were reading. But they had something in common. Neither group could explain how the other one had come to their conclusions. Both groups thought that they had the backing of good scholars.

    You may be wondering about my title at this point. I keep about six shelves of books within arm’s reach of the desk where I do my personal devotions and book study. There I keep those books that I look at regularly when I’m studying. Amongst the lexicons and grammars, I include some other works, one of which is Darrell Bock’s Jesus According to Scripture.

    Now Dr. Bock is somewhat more conservative than I am. I’m much more willing to question the historicity of portions of the stories told in the gospels. But one thing I want to do is understand how these passages have been harmonized by others. In other words, I don’t want to say that two stories are irreconcilable in their current form without both trying myself and seeing how others may have done it.

    That’s where Jesus According to Scripture comes in. Dr. Bock outlines the relationships between the various gospels for each pericope in the gospels. Once I have read that material I may not agree with any of the reconstructions, but at least I have considered the possibility.

    Now I doubt that there are many historical Jesus scholars who have never given consideration to any of these options. But I’m certain that there are other areas where scholars have not fully considered alternative ways of looking at a text. I find this in some conservative commentaries in which historical-critical research is dismissed out of hand. Fortunately, there is a substantial crop of excellent recent commentaries where this is not the case. Those commentaries are matched by critical commentaries that do not take the time to cover the possibility of some conservative options, for example for dating or authorship.

    But amongst the readers of this material, there are indeed many people who simply read one commentary or one book on a topic and believe they have a good view of what Biblical scholars believe on the topic.

    I had this emphasized to me in a study group I once led. They had asked me to lead a study on the book of Revelation, so I proceeded to used multiple commentaries in my own preparation, and also to look at some of the background texts, such as portions of Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, and so forth. After a couple of weeks I was told I was making it much too complex. The majority of the group asked me to teach from David Jeremiah’s book Escape the Coming Night, if I remember correctly. They pointed out to me how simple he made it, and wanted me to follow that so that they could understand clearly.

    I had to tell them that I really couldn’t teach that book because I very simply didn’t agree with it. It was a great shock to them. To them, this was what Revelation meant. It was the only way. There might be minor variations, but not a completely different approach. (I take a completely different approach in my study guide, Revelation: a Participatory Study Guide, for what it’s worth.) They pointed out where Dr. Jeremiah said that Revelation was really quite easy to understand once you knew how to interpret it.

    In turn, I pointed out that I have a complete shelf of books on Revelation (and I still feel I need many more), and that many of them claimed it was quite simple, and no two of those agreed. Of course, quite a number quite correctly say it’s not simple at all.

    This is why I think that there is a great need in our Christian education departments for teaching about the nuts and bolts of Biblical studies. It seems to me that much of what goes on in Sunday School classes is a sort of “vain repetition” reinforcing the stuff that we already know and have studied year after year.

    So whatever needs to happen in academia–and I’d generally favor a great deal of openness–we need more dialog between various viewpoints in our churches.

    Now here’s the hard question: Will we allow discussion of serious issues, complete with the possibility that people might come to “unapproved” conclusions in our churches? That’s perhaps a little tougher of a question than one about an academic environment. I have found that many quite liberal individuals in churches can get very wary of materials from any other denomination used in their churches. I even heard one liberal education director complain that a book had “too much Jesus” in it. (I must point out that I vigorously disagreed.)

    On the other hand, I know of many conservative churches where similar materials would be rejected. I have worked with folks who would accept invitations to speak at my church in my education program but would never consider inviting me or anyone from my church to speak at theirs.

    Which brings me to what I think is the most important point: This isn’t about quid pro quo or tit for tat. It’s not about whether liberals or conservatives are more closed minded. I kept right on inviting those folks who weren’t inviting me back. In fact, I had never imagined that they would invite me back. I and my students benefited from their expertise and from being exposed to their point of view. Not having a speaker come to their church that might reflect my perspective was entirely their loss.

    High quality diversity is an advantage, and it needs to be pursued irrespective of how others behave. Those who pursue it will reap the benefits.

  • Origen on the True Meaning of Scripture

    From his Commentary on the Gospel of John X.27, copied from newadvent.org:

    When He was raised from the dead, John 2:22 His disciples remembered that He spoke this, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. This tells us that after Jesus’ resurrection from the dead His disciples saw that what He had said about the temple had a higher application to His passion and His resurrection; they remembered that the words, In three days I will raise it up, pointed to the resurrection; And they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. We are not told that they believed the Scripture or the word which Jesus said, before. For faith in its full sense is the act of him who accepts with his whole soul what is professed at baptism. As for the higher sense, as we have already spoken of the resurrection from the dead of the whole body of the Lord, we have now to note that the disciples were put in mind by the fulfilment of the Scripture which when they were in life they had not fully understood; its meaning was now brought under their eyes and made quite clear to them, and they knew of what heavenly things it was the pattern and shadow. Then they believed the Scripture who formerly did not believe it, and believed the word of Jesus which, as the speaker means to convey, they had not believed before the resurrection. For how can any one be said in the full sense to believe the Scripture when he does not see in it the mind of the Holy Spirit, which God would have us to believe rather than the literal meaning? From this point of view we must say that none of those who walk according to the flesh believe the spiritual things of the law, of the very beginnings of which they have no conception. [Emphasis mine. Links in the text go to the Bible or Catholic Encyclopedia on NewAdvent.org.]

    I think Origen here makes an important point about knowledge of scripture.  Whether or not one acknowledges the divine origin of scripture, I think it is clear that there is a difference in understanding between the believer and one who does not.  That doesn’t mean that those who don’t believe cannot understand the statements of scripture, but simply that there will always be a difference that it would be helpful for both to acknowledge.

  • The Mosaic Bible and the Lectionary – Update

    As I mentioned in an earlier post I’ve been trying to test the value of Holy Bible: Mosaic NLT (Meditations) for a lectionary preacher or teacher.  I use the weekly lectionary texts regularly for my personal devotions, attend a lectionary study group each Wednesday at noon, and also use the texts on those few occasions when I’m asked to preach.

    Of course, the texts in the Mosaic Bible are not the same as any one of the three years of the lectionary cycle, though they are done in the same pattern.  One could preach through this Bible for a year in one’s church with profit, I think as it would follow the church’s liturgical year, even though one would not be using the regular set of texts.

    But the alternative is to use some of the mosaic resources, the materials that come from various times and places, to supplement the regular materials.  In that, I’ve found that there is a scattering of texts I can use during ordinary time, but as I approach Advent, I’m finding that things are much more helpful.  This is to be expected, because the many weeks in ordinary time are not so precisely themed.

    For example, in the material for the first Sunday of Advent, titled “Longing” Matthew Woodley has a meditation titled “Imagine.”  One line will illustrate the value for Advent–“Advent trains us to ache again.”  (p. 18)  (My sister wrote a poem related to this point, which she has graciously permitted me to post.)

    I do think it is necessary to go through the various advent readings, because you may not be using them on the same week as indicated.

    Overall, I have found this to be a valuable resource, but not quite first rank overall in my lectionary reading and study.