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	<title>Threads from Henry&#039;s Web &#187; Biblical Inerrancy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://henrysthreads.com/category/biblical-inerrancy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://henrysthreads.com</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian</description>
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		<title>Of Virgin Births and Whale&#8217;s Bellies</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2011/12/of-virgin-births-and-whales-bellies/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2011/12/of-virgin-births-and-whales-bellies/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Albert Mohler]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Scot McKnight]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Virgin birth of Jesus]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=3383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>Allan Bevere asks an interesting question today on his blog: Just how important is the doctrine of the virgin birth to you? He titles the post Must One Believe in the Virgin Birth to Be a Christian?</p> <p>I tend to annoy people on both sides of the spectrum (belief in miracles spectrum, of course) [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Allan Bevere asks an interesting question today on his blog: Just how important is the doctrine of the virgin birth to you? He titles the post <a title="Must one believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian?" href="http://www.allanbevere.com/2011/12/must-one-believe-in-virgin-birth-to-be.html">Must One Believe in the Virgin Birth to Be a Christian?</a></p>
	<p>I tend to annoy people on both sides of the spectrum (belief in miracles spectrum, of course) because despite the word &#8220;liberal&#8221; in the subtitle of this blog I do, in fact, believe in the virgin birth as an event that happened in history, but at the same time, I&#8217;m not concerned with whether others believe it or not. Allan cites <a title="Must we believe in the virgin birth" href="http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/12/14/must-we-believe-in-the-virgin-birth/">Albert Mohler</a>, who believes it is necessary to accept the virgin birth in order to be a Christian.</p>
	<p>Allan also stomps on one annoying tendency, the way in which some liberals tend to pounce on conservatives as less intellectual because of their beliefs. If one accepts miracles, one is less sophisticated. But I think it is only fair to point out the opposite fault in Mohler&#8217;s article, the tendency to regard liberals as less devout because of the things they <em>don&#8217;t</em> believe in.</p>
	<blockquote><p>Nicholas Kristof pointed to his grandfather as a “devout” Presbyterian elder who believed that the Virgin Birth is a “pious legend.” Follow his example, Kristof encourages, and join the modern age. But we must face the hard fact that Kristof’s grandfather denied the faith. This is a very strange and perverse definition of “devout.”</p></blockquote>
	<p>This is a conservative&#8217;s way of belittling an opponent, just as &#8220;intellectually unsophisticated&#8221; is the liberal&#8217;s approach. I must, however, point out that neither side is above using the other&#8217;s ammunition, and that both sides have those who avoid either fault.</p>
	<p>In support of my belief in the virgin birth, I will be very brief. I&#8217;ve already accepted the bodily resurrection, so the virgin birth hardly seems like an issue to me. At the same time, and more importantly, I accept the incarnation as both true and as the most central doctrine of Christianity, and if I can accept that infinite God can become a human being, the idea that this might be accomplished through a virgin birth again seems pretty trivial.</p>
	<p>In support of my belief that the virgin birth is not essential, I will again cite the doctrine of the incarnation. I believe the <a title="Christian essentials - incarnation at the center" href="http://henrysthreads.com/2006/08/christian-essentials-incarnation-at-the-center/">incarnation is absolutely critical</a>. It&#8217;s quite possible, however, to see the virgin birth as a metaphorical statement of that doctrine, or perhaps more precisely an expression of part of the meaning of that doctrine. I don&#8217;t even claim to have any details in mind on how the virgin birth might occur. Did God create a new baby in the womb? Did God adjust the DNA? So despite believing in a virgin birth as a historical event, I don&#8217;t have a clue as to how it happened. Thus in teaching it, I probably say almost the same things as would someone who believed it was purely metaphor.</p>
	<p>And that brings me to whale&#8217;s bellies. On <a title="Is Jonah Historical" href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2011/12/15/is-jonah-historical/">The Jesus Creed</a> we have Scot McKnight getting involved in the question of the historicity of the <a class="zem_slink" title="Book of Jonah" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jonah" rel="wikipedia">book of Jonah</a>. (I&#8217;ll leave you to follow the further links there.) A miracle of preserving someone&#8217;s life for three days inside a sea creature of some sort, whether a whale or something else, is again trivial alongside the incarnation and the resurrection. But I don&#8217;t believe the book of Jonah is historical. Why? I think there&#8217;s very good evidence in the text that we&#8217;re reading fiction designed to make some very specific points to an audience in a different time and place than the one in which the story is set. I don&#8217;t have a problem with the miracle. Were I convinced that Jonah was history, nothing else in my belief system would have to change. God <em>could</em> manage the whale&#8217;s belly thing. I just happen to believe God did not do so. But if you want to accuse me of being intellectually unsophisticated, go ahead. Because I <em>am</em> intellectually unsophisticated enough to believe the miracle is possible.</p>
	<p>Then there&#8217;s the question of Jesus&#8217; use of the three days motif from Jonah. I will simply comment that I know one can refer to a fictional story in this fashion because I have done it myself. I&#8217;ve used a fictional story to illustrate a real event and it has generally worked just fine. Occasionally fine, fact-oriented, 21st century folks get upset with me about it, but I tell them to chill.</p>
	<p>I want to respond also to the first comment on McKnight&#8217;s article, which is from <a title="First Things" href="http://firstthings.com/">Joe Carter</a>. Here he wonders how we might distinguish when Jesus is using supernatural power and when he&#8217;s using the knowledge of his culture. I&#8217;d make two points. 1) If Jesus didn&#8217;t use the knowledge of his culture, could he really have been said to have lived as a human? Would not constant supernatural knowledge make him not quite truly human? 2) Is this not the common problem in reading scripture? We distinguish the cultural background from the message all the time in case after case. Surely it is not that difficult in most cases, and in many cases where it is difficult, it is not all that important.</p>
	<p>&nbsp;</p>
	<div class="zemanta-pixie" style="margin-top: 10px; height: 15px;"><a class="zemanta-pixie-a" title="Enhanced by Zemanta" href="http://www.zemanta.com/"><img class="zemanta-pixie-img" style="float: right;" src="http://img.zemanta.com/zemified_c.png?x-id=404dc794-1e30-4b29-8c3b-6a849a8cfeed" alt="Enhanced by Zemanta" /></a></div>
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		<title>On Inerrancy Again</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/07/on-inerrancy-again/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/07/on-inerrancy-again/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jul 2010 20:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inerrancy]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>My previous post refers to Preserving Democracy, written by my friend Elgin Hushbeck, Jr., but doesn&#8217;t actually mention that we have been friends for some time. I say this because I&#8217;m about to take his name in vain (sort of). We&#8217;ve been friends since the mid-90s when we met on the Religion Forum on [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My <a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2010/07/a-new-edition-of-preserving-democracy/">previous post refers to Preserving Democracy</a>, written by my friend Elgin Hushbeck, Jr., but doesn&#8217;t actually mention that we have been friends for some time.  I say this because I&#8217;m about to take his name in vain (sort of).  We&#8217;ve been friends since the mid-90s when we met on the <a href="http://thereligionforum.com">Religion Forum on Compuserve</a>.</p>
	<p>One of the books I publish is Elgin&#8217;s book Evidence for the Bible.  Now he doesn&#8217;t explicitly argue for inerrancy in that book, but he does affirm the doctrine of inerrancy, while I do not.  I recall when I had occasion to drive him from Pensacola to the airport in New Orleans, after he&#8217;d spoken at a conference I had organized, and we spent the nearly three hours involved in discussing inerrrancy and applying it to specific scriptures.</p>
	<p>What we found was that we stated our view of scripture differently, but when it came down to specific cases, we handled passages in a very similar way.  Our practice was much closer than our theory.  Now I would maintain, and I suspect Elgin would as well, that a good theory works in practice, and thus there is probably some weakness in the expression of one or the other view of inspiration, if not both.</p>
	<p>I was reminded of that conversation when I read the <a href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-classic-we-thought-he-was-such-a-nice-boy%e2%80%a6and-then-we-found-out-he-didn%e2%80%99t-believe-in%e2%80%a6-inerrancy">iMonk Classic: We thought he was such a nice boy…and then we found out he didn’t believe in….Inerrancy!!</a>, and a response on <a href="http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2005/02/inerrancy_again.html">JOLLYBLOGGER</a>.  Many of the arguments are very similar, even though I&#8217;m not a Calvinist.  In the places one refers to belief in Calvinism one could, with equal force, refer to similar positions from Arminianism.</p>
	<p>I commend these two posts for re-reading and discussion.  I haven&#8217;t yet changed my mind, but there are serious points here that deserve consideration.<br />
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		<title>Scot McKnight on Walton on Genesis 1</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/08/scot-mcknight-on-walton-on-genesis-1/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/08/scot-mcknight-on-walton-on-genesis-1/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Creation and Evolution]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=2230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>Scot McKnight has started an 18 part discussion of John Walton&#8217;s book The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate. Even though I have not yet read Dr. Walton&#8217;s book, I can tell you that this is a very important discussion for Christians and that I expect much value just [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Scot McKnight has started <a href="http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/08/genesis-one-1.html">an 18 part discussion</a> of John Walton&#8217;s book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830837043?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=henryneufeld&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=390957&#038;creativeASIN=0830837043">The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=henryneufeld&#038;l=as2&#038;o=1&#038;a=0830837043" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />.  Even though I have not yet read Dr. Walton&#8217;s book, I can tell you that this is a very important discussion for Christians and that I expect much value just from reading online discussions.</p>
	<p>This first installment, referring to chapter one of the book, examines the claim that Genesis 1 is ancient cosmology and that God spoke to the Israelites using their knowledge of cosmology.  Incidentally I have been arguing this since I was in college, and it is hardly original with me.  It takes a long time for this sort of thing to penetrate from theological schools to popular level books.</p>
	<p>To summarize:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
&#8220;God communicated his revelation to his immediate audience terms they understood&#8221; (17). &#8230; [page # refers to book page #-HN]
</p></blockquote>
	<p>Just so.  That sentence could be considered the critical and central point of my own view of inspiration.  That is why I can see something in scripture that is clearly wrong&#8211;according to our understanding of the data&#8211;and yet not say it&#8217;s <em>wrong</em>.  It was right at the time and it is right for us now, because God intends us to read as a community that continues in time, and thus we are asked to understand both the human audience (both prophet and people) and the Divine Speaker.</p>
	<p>I would note one thing here, which is that simply seeing Genesis 1 as ancient cosmology doesn&#8217;t settle all issues in the origins debate.  I&#8217;ll be interested to see what transpires in further chapters.  What I have found most tricky is dealing with the fall and redemption.</p>
	<p>I&#8217;m very eager to see the rest of this discussion and to get my hands on Walton&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>Interpreting the Bible VIII:  Biblical Literalism, Attitude, and Avoidance</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/05/interpreting-the-bible-viii-biblical-literalism-attitude-and-avoidance/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/05/interpreting-the-bible-viii-biblical-literalism-attitude-and-avoidance/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Author Related]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible Study]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discipleship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Revelation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Acts]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exegesis]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hermeneutics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[interpretation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leviticus]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=2166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>This is a continuation of my series on interpreting the Bible. The first post in the series is Interpreting the Bible I: Obvious Exegesis, while the most recent one was Interpreting the Bible VII: Christians Contribute to Confusion.</p> <p>As a reminder, my starting point was a number of comments that suggested that those who [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is a continuation of my series on interpreting the Bible.  The first post in the series is <a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-i-obvious-exegesis/">Interpreting the Bible I:  Obvious Exegesis</a>, while the most recent one was <a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2009/03/interpreting-the-bible-vii-christians-contribute-to-confusion/">Interpreting the Bible VII:  Christians Contribute to Confusion</a>.</p>
	<p>As a reminder, my starting point was a number of comments that suggested that those who take the Bible less literally are thereby less serious Christians.  These suggestions were not coming from conservative Christians, but from non-Christians.  In some cases, I question the motivation of such suggestions.  I believe that Richard Dawkins, for example, prefers to debate hard-line fundamentalists, and so would like to dismiss the rest of us from the Christian faith.</p>
	<p>What I believe I have done so far is to show that interpreting the Bible, broadly called hermeneutics, is a bit more complex than these folks would like, and that just taking the Bible literally, as best as I can understand what they mean by &#8220;literally,&#8221; is not the way Christians have read the Bible historically.  I have further noted that even basic exegesis, which I define as looking for the text as it was intended to be understood by the original audience, is more complex than these folks let on.</p>
	<p>Those who are eagerly waiting for me to solve issues such as the violent passages in the Bible or gay and lesbian marriage will still have to wait.  While I will discuss those issues, my primary purpose here is to look at the <em>method</em>.  I believe that our discussions of the Bible would be much more profitable if we would simply think and talk more about <em>how</em> we come to our understanding, rather than simply trying to defend that understanding.  Two people may mean very different things by saying that a concept is &#8220;Biblical.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Let me reiterate here, as I believe has been demonstrated previously with the help of commenters, that the issues I&#8217;m discussing do not hinge on belief in inerrancy.  Belief that the Bible is inerrant does not limit one with reference to determining what type of literature a particular passage is.</p>
	<p>I want to clarify this further by using a couple of examples.  Two controversial books amongst conservatives are Jonah and Job.  There are quite a number of people, even conservatives, who will claim that these books are fiction.  To make that claim doesn&#8217;t mean that the books contain error.  Rather, it means that they intentionally present whatever it is they present in fictional form.  Now there are those who regard fiction itself as evil, but that is a different argument.</p>
	<p>Let&#8217;s say you have a historical novel, written with the intent of accurately portraying a certain place and time in history, but doing so using fictional characters in a fictional narrative.  What would constitute an error?  Well, if one introduced an historical event connecting to the story, and placed this event at the wrong time, it might be an error.  Suppose one had an historical building, and it didn&#8217;t exist at the time in question.  That might be an error as well.</p>
	<p>The key in all of these points would be the author&#8217;s intent.  Such an author might well introduce a house or a small street that was not historical, but wouldn&#8217;t presumably introduce a new city hall.  There are things that the historical novel wishes to convey that are facts, and there is a story to be enjoyed along the way.  Similarly, C. S. Lewis is not in error in the Screwtape Letters if there is no demon named Screwtape, nor is he in error in the Chronicles of Narnia if there is no Narnia.</p>
	<p>I find this comparison to be of interest in the books of Jonah and Job, because I think we often get to argument about little houses and back streets in the story, while missing the big things.</p>
	<p>In Jonah, I frequently hear discussions of two major issues:  First, was Jonah really swallowed by a &#8220;great fish&#8221; or a &#8220;whale&#8221;?  Second, was Nineveh really so big it would take three days to walk across it.  (Those who know some Hebrew may laugh a bit at the particular rendering there&#8211;I&#8217;m using the form in which I normally hear the question.)  But are those really the questions?</p>
	<p>I would suggest several themes in the book of Jonah:</p>
	<ol>
	<li>God can call you to uncomfortable places and missions on which you would rather not go.</li>
	<li>Even when you&#8217;re going the other direction, God is likely to take note.</li>
	<li>Intervention may be uncomfortable&#8211;note how Jonah ends up on shore.</li>
	<li>God offers repentance even to people I may hate.</li>
	<li>God is gracious and merciful, even to the worst of sinners.</li>
	</ol>
	<p>&#8230; and a few more, none of which are really impacted by whether the story is fictional.  All of these points have annoyed someone at some time, and indeed according to the story, they annoyed Jonah, and presumably were controversial amongst the readers of the book.  I am not here trying to argue these points.  I&#8217;m simply saying that finding fiction in the Bible is not the same thing as finding error.</p>
	<p>I consider Job even more interesting.  If the book is historical, then we have an individual who suffered because God allowed him to be attacked and tormented.  This may, of course, be extended by analogy or in principle to others.  On the other hand, if the story is fictional, then one would have to assume that Job is presented as a type of sufferer, and that it is quite possible that God might call on me&#8211;or you&#8211;to suffer to make a demonstration for him.  Are you concerned that bad things seem to happen to good and bad people alike?  Here are some bad things that happen specifically to <em>good</em> people.</p>
	<p>Now you can get that second idea while reading Job as historical, though I have heard some folks argue that this is something that happened only once (they forget about Jesus, apparently), but I think that if you read it as a fictional account, you are forced to the conclusion that it applies broadly in principle&#8211;God&#8217;s servants may be called to suffer in the fight against evil, and they may never know just why.  Note that Job never receives an explanation of his suffering.</p>
	<p>So you note here that the issue is not whether the text is in error or not, or whether one takes it literally or not, but rather just what are the literary characteristics, what is meant by them, and just how that might apply.  If I could delete one statement from the vocabulary of Christian conservatives it would be: &#8220;I take the Bible literally.&#8221;  If I could delete one statement from the vocabulary of liberal Christians:  &#8220;I don&#8217;t take the Bible that literally.&#8221;  Both are misleading.  (As I note in my <a href="http://books.energion.com/biblical/bible_for_yourself_lahaye.shtml">review of his book <em>How to Study the Bible for Yourself</em></a>, Tim LaHaye makes this his first rule of hermeneutics.  Needless to say, I disagree;  in fact, I regard it as one of the worst rules.)</p>
	<p>If I might pound this point into the ground a bit, some interpreters, including LaHaye, have applied this to the book of Revelation.  But just what should one take &#8220;literally&#8221; in the book of Revelation?  Personally, I tend to take the introduction quite literally when it uses a variety of literary indicators to show that John saw a vision.  Once we&#8217;re in a vision, I take things as a vision, which may have varying degrees of attachment to physical things, and I believe that is the correct way to take them.  Even where there are likely literal connections, such as with the churches, or with a number of symbols, the vision context warns us to look for more than meets the eye.  Revelation 12 &#038; 13, for example, while containing symbols that may be attached to specifics, also provide a very good general appreciation of the battle between good and evil, and numerous principles for living in the midst of such a battle.  The literal/non-literal dichotomy is terribly inadequate to the task of understanding such a passage.</p>
	<p>Some may be wondering how one would take the vision framework non-literally.  There are many commentators who would treat the &#8220;vision&#8221; as a literary device used to present a set of symbols.  It is quite possible to understand it in that way, though I disagree.  In fact, I think assuming an ecstatic state, in vision, for some of the writing of Revelation will explain some literary and linguistic peculiarities, but that is a completely different topic.</p>
	<p>Now I would maintain that conservatives, liberals, and those between are all susceptible to coming up with ad hoc interpretations that allow one to avoid the impact of a text, or to make a text have an inappropriate impact.  Let me start with a controversial one.</p>
	<p>Leviticus 18:22 is commonly presented as a text demonstrating that homosexuality is sin and unacceptable.  (Note that &#8220;I don&#8217;t take it that literally&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem to work here.  It&#8217;s pretty literal.)  I like to present people with Leviticus 19:33-34, which says to treat an alien living among you as one of your own citizen.  Now I&#8217;m not arguing what applies here and what doesn&#8217;t.  Both are literal commands given in the same general body of law.  A valid approach would be to ask just how commands given to Israel in Leviticus apply to others.</p>
	<p>But avoiding all of those issues, it&#8217;s very interesting to watch people&#8217;s responses to this connection.  First, it is almost universally assumed that simply because I present Leviticus 19:33-34 I believe that Leviticus 18:22 is not applicable.  Liberal audiences often assume that because they want to; conservative audiences assume that because they can&#8217;t imagine why I would present them with such an alternative text if it isn&#8217;t to undermine the impact of the first text.</p>
	<p>But the real question here is why and how either text should apply.  I would suggest that there are similar tasks of interpretation and application that need to be used in both cases.  In actuality, however, with most lay audiences I find that these two texts apply according to cultural inclinations.  Those who favor gay and lesbian inclusion exclude 18:22 and very often the same people are delighted to include 19:33-34.  Those who oppose homosexuality accept 18:22 as applicable, but will explain that 19:33-34 was for a different time and place.</p>
	<p>I would suggest that the processes of interpretation and application for both are complex, and that in neither case is the best approach simply trying to interpret the individual text.  If your question is how should our nation treat aliens residing in the country, I doubt you will find clear direction as to what the law should be.  If the question is how you, as an individual Christian, should treat aliens, I think you will find many scriptures that you can group together in finding the proper principles to guide your behavior.  Similarly with homosexuality, I think the approach that says, essentially, &#8220;How many texts are there that forbid homosexual acts, and how can I (or can I not) explain them,&#8221; is precisely the wrong approach.  A better approach to any question is to try to discover God&#8217;s ideal, and then look at how we might approach that.</p>
	<p>To continue with my examples, however, let me look at another passage:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
<sup>32</sup>Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common.  <sup>33</sup>With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.  <sup>34</sup>There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold.  <sup>35</sup>They laid it at the apostles&#8217; feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. &#8212; Acts 4:32-35
</p></blockquote>
	<p>Here again you have a verse that can split interpreters right in the middle!  Out of the characteristics of the early church just what are we supposed to apply today.  Many of my more liberal brethren are pretty happy with the common ownership thing, and there being nobody in need in the church.  They will take various attitudes toward the rest, such as whether this should be done entirely by the church, testimony to the resurrection, and so forth.  There are many who would make Christianity a matter of the distribution of wealth, without any regard for the testimony to the resurrection.</p>
	<p>On the other hand, I can cite my own uncle, Don F. Neufeld, an interpreter in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, associate editor of the SDA Bible Commentary and editor of the SDA Bible Dictionary.  In a personal conversation he was quick to point out to me that this practice was quickly abandoned by the church and didn&#8217;t appear to be the norm in Paul&#8217;s congregations, for example.  This strikes me as an example of finding <a href="http://www.deepbiblestudy.net/?p=114">trajectories in scripture</a>, something I think is quite appropriate, yet is often criticized as too subjective.</p>
	<p>I have heard many other explanations for common ownership, most aimed at keeping the early church from being too socialist.  So here we have otherwise conservative interpreters finding the exit ramp in the middle of this verse.  But liberals need not crow, because Christian unity, power, and mutual support is inextricably linked to the testimony of Jesus risen from the dead, and I think it would be difficult to build a case that the author of Luke-Acts would think it possible for it to be any other way.</p>
	<p>(I am aware that liberals do not necessarily deny the resurrection, though many do deny a physical resurrection.  I am called liberal, and I personally accept a physcial&#8211;or bodily&#8211;resurrection.  Nonetheless I believe that it is a liberal weakness to attempt to separate good works from the incarnation, and that is a weakness I see as ultimately fatal to Christianity.)</p>
	<p>The issue, I think, is our attitude in approaching scripture.  There can be quite a variety of approaches to understanding scripture, and none of them are necessarily related to whether we take scripture seriously.  What I would say characterizes a distinctly <em>Christian</em> approach to (Christian) scripture is the attitude of openness to correction.  Each approach to interpretation can be used as a means of avoiding things I don&#8217;t like, i.e. of making scripture simply the excuse for what I wanted to do anyway.</p>
	<p>Liberal and conservative Christians don&#8217;t differ so much on the basic desire to avoid certain passages as on which passages they avoid and how they go about avoiding them.</p>
	<p>(I will continue next time by trying to look faithfully at some of the violent passages in the Old Testament.  Don&#8217;t get impatient&#8211;this series will go on for a long time.  Apologies to those who want a quick answer; I don&#8217;t believe in quick answers.)</p>
	<div id="crp_related">
<h2>Related Posts:</h2>
	<ul>
<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2009/03/interpreting-the-bible-vi-introducing-some-test-passages/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Interpreting the Bible VI &#8211; Introducing some Test Passages</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2009/03/interpreting-the-bible-vii-christians-contribute-to-confusion/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Interpreting the Bible VII &#8211; Christians Contribute to Confusion</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2007/12/biblical-inerrancy-and-evolution/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Biblical Inerrancy and Evolution</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iii-the-impact-of-inerrancy/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Interpreting the Bible III &#8211; The Impact of Inerrancy</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2011/12/of-virgin-births-and-whales-bellies/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Of Virgin Births and Whale&#8217;s Bellies</a></li>
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		<title>Borrowing and Inspiration</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/05/borrowing-and-inspiration/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/05/borrowing-and-inspiration/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 14:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Author Related]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[myth]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mythology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=2160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>I want to discuss inspiration just a bit, partly because it is relevant to my next post on Biblical interpretation (I hope to post it later today), and partly because there is someone on Twitter who is spouting a great deal of nonsense with regard to parallels and borrowing.</p> <p>(For those interested, he is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I want to discuss inspiration just a bit, partly because it is relevant to my next post on Biblical interpretation (I hope to post it later today), and partly because there is someone on Twitter who is spouting a great deal of nonsense with regard to parallels and borrowing.</p>
	<p>(For those interested, he is <a href="http://twitter.com/BibleAlsoSays">@BibleAlsoSays</a>, he claims to be &#8220;Religion&#8217;s Nightmare,&#8221; and he has a <a href="http://www.thebiblealsosays.com/">rather routine web site by the same name</a>.  If you are a believer, don&#8217;t worry about going to the non-believers side.  You&#8217;ve likely heard all these accusations before.)</p>
	<p>But my purpose here is to take a quick look at the way in which we debate inspiration, particularly, but not exclusively, when we&#8217;re using the term &#8220;inerrancy.&#8221;  I would note that the problem I&#8217;m discussing remains the same in any discussion in which some form of inspiration beyond an ordinary text is claimed of scripture.</p>
	<p>I recall an e-mail discussion I had with a Muslim lady some years back.  She seemed to believe I was a sincere Christian who might be willing to look at something better.  We exchanged several e-mails, but her final attempt to persuade me can be summarized as:  The Qur&#8217;an provides you with a clear and absolute answer for every question and aspect of life.</p>
	<p>Now I don&#8217;t know enough about Islam or the Qur&#8217;an to say just how many Muslims would agree with that, though I have heard it from more than one Muslim, so I know it is not a unique argument.  What ended our discussion was my response.  I told her that I didn&#8217;t find that to be an attractive quality in a holy book.  She was quite stunned.</p>
	<p>You see, to her it was obvious that a book that answered all of her questions and gave her absolute ground on which to stand <strong>must</strong> be divine.</p>
	<p>I hear the inverse of that argument quite frequently.  There is some aspect or another of the Bible that someone thinks is inconsistent with divine revelation.  They bring this to me, sometimes repeatedly, because it is so obvious to <em>them</em> that it is the nail in the coffin of my faith, and they are quite stunned when my faith doesn&#8217;t merely rise from the supposed coffin&#8211;it never got in it in the first place.</p>
	<p>The problem, stated simply, is this:  What are the proper characteristics of divine revelation, and how do you make that determination?  In each of these cases, someone has determined what divine revelation must or must not be, and thus their argument is conclusive.  Well, it&#8217;s conclusive if you accept their assumption.</p>
	<p>Now some of you might be questioning me on another point, which is just how parallel the parallels are, and just how &#8220;copied&#8221; the copied scriptures are.  This is a good question.  While one may find strong parallels to the stories of creation and the flood, one also finds significant differences.</p>
	<p>It is my contention, for example, that the Genesis account was not copied from the Babylonian or Sumerian accounts, but that the author was aware of other creation accounts and intentionally contradicted them.  One need only compare the function of the wind in <em>Enuma Elish</em> to Genesis 1:2 to get my basic point.</p>
	<p>But in addition, while one may demonstrate a parallel in certain places, it is much harder in others.  Where in the ancient world do we find poetry comparable in style and theme to that of Isaiah 40-66?  Where do we find struggles with God that are truly like those of Jeremiah?</p>
	<p>But valid as those points are, I don&#8217;t think they get to the basic point, which is that we impose a set of assumptions of what a sacred text should be on various sacred texts, which would result in nothing more than selecting the sacred text that we find most helpful to the needs we feel.  But is that a valid argument for truth?</p>
	<p>I would suggest that a major part of the problem here is the attempt to select a religious text as standard prior to a &#8220;selection&#8221; of faith or a faith community.  In my own experience, an acceptance of scripture was not logically prior to an acceptance of Christ, even though I knew scripture.</p>
	<p>I might put it this way:  The good news (gospel) is not that the Bible is true and you ought to obey it, but rather that Jesus Christ died for <em>your</em> sins and rose from the dead.  I become part of the body of Christ first, and then accept the scriptures because they testify of Jesus.</p>
	<p>Now I don&#8217;t want to make this a purely fideistic approach.  I do believe there is a place to discuss reliability, but that place is within the context of the body of Christ and not as a sterile issue that simply attempts to demonstrate a body of facts.  But at the bottom of my belief system, unsurprisingly, is an act of faith.  Without that act of faith, the rest does not seem nearly so logical.</p>
	<p>Apart from the conviction in my heart&#8211;you ask me how I know He lives / He lives within my heart&#8211;I would not be able to get past the impossibility of the resurrection.  Let me add here that those who try to make the resurrection more &#8220;possible&#8221; do nothing for me.  If the resurrection is &#8220;possible&#8221; in a natural sense, then it is also meaningless.</p>
	<p>Thus, for me, learning about inspiration has been much more of a journey in which I look at how God works.  I learn more about how God speaks by looking at how scripture works&#8211;borrowing and all&#8211;than I do by reading specific texts that discuss inspiration.  By looking at scripture I understand how God works.</p>
	<p>There is one other point regarding borrowing.  People who make an issue of borrowing in the ancient world seem to me to be generally unaware of literature.  What we call mythological themes are repeated in literature all over the place.</p>
	<p>To call this copying plagiarism, besides being anachronistic, is to ignore the passage of time and the contemporary standards of referencing.  But saying that the Genesis story of the flood was copied from <em>Gilgamesh</em>, or that the first chapter of Genesis was copied from <em>Enuma Elish</em> ignores even modern standards.  The standard movie disclaimer &#8220;inspired by a true story&#8221; might be closer to the truth.</p>
	<p>To be effective, communication must communicate, and that involves using relevant themes.  Mythological themes come from the problems of real life, and it should not be surprising at all that they are repeated multiple times.</p>
	<p>I would add one final note, though this blog post is getting too long.  In establishing parallels, one must look at both similarities and dissimilarities.  One can make almost any two stories seem parallel if one is permitted to list only similarities.  On the other hand, one can prove that two stories are not at all parallel if one is permitted to list only dissimilarities.  You can only establish some form of true relationship when you consider both, and in addition account for universal themes.</p>
	<p>For me, the study of parallels is a completely relaxed process of looking at <em>how</em> scripture communicates&#8211;a wonderful blend of human and divine.  Without the human, it could not be said to <em>communicate</em>; without the divine it would have nothing to communicate.</p>
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<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2006/01/community-and-inspiration/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Community and Inspiration</a></li>
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	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2006/01/the-heart-of-inspiration/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">The Heart of Inspiration</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/comprehending-divine-inspiration/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Comprehending Divine Inspiration</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2006/03/applying-divine-human-scriptures/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Applying Divine-Human Scriptures</a></li>
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</div>
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		<item>
		<title>Interpreting the Bible &#8211; Mid-Course Focus</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-mid-course-focus/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-mid-course-focus/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Atheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Author Related]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible Study]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Young Earth Creationism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dr. Richard Dawkins]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exegesis]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The God Delusion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=1905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>This isn&#8217;t a summary of previous posts, but rather an attempt to focus on the issue I&#8217;m trying to address with this series before I continue. The problem with a series like this is that the examples begin to take over the topic. Since I have used complementarianism and theistic evolution as examples, and [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This isn&#8217;t a summary of previous posts, but rather an attempt to focus on the issue I&#8217;m trying to address with this series before I continue.  The problem with a series like this is that the examples begin to take over the topic.  Since I have used complementarianism and theistic evolution as examples, and brought inerrancy into the discussion in order to demonstrate that it is not the key issue involved, it is easy for a reader to decide that I&#8217;m trying to debate any one of those issues, or perhaps to prefer that I debate them and try to redirect the topic.</p>
	<p>Since the posts to which I responded brought up two more issues, homosexuality and violent passages in the Bible, which are again controversial issues, I want to focus back on the point I&#8217;m trying to make:  It&#8217;s both difficult and inappropriate to tell your opponent what his or her position <em>ought</em> to be.  In this case I&#8217;m responding to the charge that a Christian who accepts the theory of evolution is less Biblical because the &#8220;obvious exegesis&#8221; of Genesis favors a young earth creationist position.</p>
	<p>Also, though I believe that theistic evolution is the best position to take at the moment, I am not attempting to demonstrate that.  Rather, I&#8217;m attempting to show that it, along with a number of other positions on Genesis, can be held plausibly as interpretations of the Biblical text.  The particular position one adopts depends on other factors, including the particular approach one takes to Biblical interpretation.  After this mid-course focus I&#8217;m going to look at other issues and ask whether the exegesis is so obvious that an opponent of some particular brand of theology can easily dismiss it as &#8220;not real Christianity.&#8221;  Within some limits, Christianity allows, and has always allowed, some flexibility.</p>
	<p>The problem often starts with a charge that goes something like this:</p>
	<p>1)  The Bible clearly teaches X<br />
2)  X is unthinkable or false<br />
3)  So Christianity must be false</p>
	<p>Now there are numerous and huge gaps in the logic as I have written it, but I think those gaps generally exist in the argument as presented by critics of Christianity.  (Note to my philosophically inclined friends:  To avoid general implosion with possible damage to the space-time continuum, do <em>not</em> try to critique that as a syllogism.  Did I say it was a syllogism?  I did not!)  Let me apply this to a couple of relevant issues:</p>
	<p>1)  The Bible clearly teaches that the earth was created in seven literal days 6,000 years ago<br />
2)  That teaching is false<br />
3)  Christianity must be false</p>
	<p>One obviously missing element here is &#8220;Christianity actually teaches X&#8221; but that is generally assumed, as is the direct connection between &#8220;The Bible clearly teaches X&#8221; and &#8220;Christianity accepts X as true.&#8221;</p>
	<p>For example, one could say that the Bible teaches that an animal must be brought as a sacrifice if one sins, but Christianity does not teach this, for reasons that seem good and proper to pretty much all Christians.  Here we have a teaching that is fairly clear, but that Christians believe applied to a particular set of times and places, not including the present.  You can try to use this to demonstrate that Christians don&#8217;t really follow the Bible, but it&#8217;s not going to help as an argument against Christianity because it teaches animal sacrifice.  (PETA beware!)</p>
	<p>That would fit more with another form of the argument:</p>
	<p>1)  The Bible teaches that God condones and even commands violence<br />
2)  Condoning violence is unthinkable (but where is the demonstration that it is wrong?)<br />
3)  Therefore Christianity is false</p>
	<p>Now supposing this argument is used against a Christian who is a pacifist.  Clearly the conclusion is false with reference to that person&#8217;s belief.</p>
	<p>The point I am trying to make here is not primarily whether the Bible teaches any of these things, or whether they are true or false, but whether a Christian can believe or disbelieve them and still be a Christian.  Is it proper to dismiss theistic evolutionists and even old earth creationists as &#8220;not real Christians,&#8221; rather than to respond to their actual position?</p>
	<p>Dawkins, in his book <a href="http://books.energion.com/ene_item.php?asin=0618918248">The God Delusion</a>, clearly wants to argue with fundamentalists and then dismiss all Christians based on his arguments against fundamentalists.  I blogged about that starting in <a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2007/04/from-the-land-of-the-deluded/">From the Land of the Deluded</a>, where I make some similar points.</p>
	<p>I have two suggestions here.  First, that Christianity is not defined by American fundamentalism.  I have supported that partially and will continue to do so as the series progresses.  Second, that it is better to respond to an opponent based on what that opponent actually believes rather than what you imagine them to believe or what you think they ought to believe.</p>
	<p>It is inevitable that this will sometimes fail, but it is an admirable goal in any case, and trying to define your opponent out of existence as the first step to a debate is probably not going to get you very far.</p>
	<p>Christians do this to atheists from time to time as well, in particular by concluding that an atheist actually hates God or does not desire to be under authority.  This suggests that an atheist isn&#8217;t really an atheist, but is rather a rebellious theist.  Perhaps it would be a good idea to stretch our Christian imaginations a little bit, and allow that someone might just not find the idea of God convincing, or might not see sufficient evidence to believe.  Imagine, in other words, that the atheist is honestly stating his or her beliefs.</p>
	<p>Further, we need to realize that what seems to us a certain result of a particular belief might not be so certain for someone else.  In talking about grief, I am likely to mention that my relationship with Jesus Christ and spiritual disciplines including prayer and fasting have been critical to me in facing loss.  Do I mean that someone without those particular beliefs will not be able to handle what I have handled?  Not at all!  From personal experience I know persons from other faith traditions who have found <em>their</em> beliefs and spiritual practices critical, and I know non-believers who have also endured and come out of such trials successfully.  I mention this particular case because it is very common for Christians to believe that atheists will be unable to endure hardship and loss.</p>
	<p>One last illustration might help.  I speak frequently to Methodist groups, as I&#8217;m a member of a United Methodist congregation.  Every Methodist group with whom I have discussed Calvinism has come to the conclusion that Calvinists will not engage in evangelism.  Why?  If Calvinists believe in predestination&#8211;that God has determined who will be saved or lost&#8211;what purpose is their for evangelism?  The result is already determined!</p>
	<p>Now I have always pointed out that Calvinists do, in fact, practice evangelism, and thus attacking them for a failure in outreach would be inappropriate.  A few years ago, however, I had the experience of hearing John Blanchard, a Calvinist evangelist (something many Methodists would regard as an oxymoron), who was asked this very question:  Why, if you believe in predestination, are you an evangelist?</p>
	<p>His answer, as I remember it, was this:  Predestination is a doctrine, and I believe it; evangelism is a command, and I obey it.</p>
	<p>Hmmm.  A bit different logic than we Methodists were assuming he would use, but here we have him believing both things.  He is not the person we assumed he would be.</p>
	<p>Neither is the theistic evolutionist the person you assumed him to be.  He is not necessarily a scientist whose religion is loosely pasted on.  He might be a devout believer <em>and</em> a scientist.  On the other hand, his training might be in Biblical studies, like mine is, and the church and faith might be the stuff of his daily life.  In any case, he (or she) not likely to be impressed when you claim he&#8217;s not who he says he is.</p>
	<p>As I move forward I&#8217;m going to discuss views on homosexuality and the church.  It may surprise some to know that many advocates of acceptance of gays and lesbians in the full fellowship of the church are actually quite conservative in their understanding of exegesis.  One can fault their results in a number of passages, in my view, but one can hardly say that they lack the intent or a conservative approach, even as one charges them with special pleading in particular cases.</p>
	<p>And so as not to disappoint, let me note right now that my intention will not be to argue one side or another here, but rather to look at the types of Biblical interpretation involved.</p>
	<p>Previous posts in this series were:</p>
	<ul>
	<li><a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-i-obvious-exegesis/">Interpreting the Bible I &#8211; Obvious Exegesis</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-ii-excursus-on-the-plain-sense/">Interpreting the Bible II &#8211; Excursus on the Plain Sense</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iii-the-impact-of-inerrancy/">Interpreting the Bible III &#8211; The Impact of Inerrancy</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iv-scientific-statements/">Interpreting the Bible IV &#8211; Scientific Statements</a></li>
	</ul>
	<div id="crp_related">
<h2>Related Posts:</h2>
	<ul>
<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2009/03/interpreting-the-bible-vi-introducing-some-test-passages/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Interpreting the Bible VI &#8211; Introducing some Test Passages</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/the-need-for-my-series-on-interpreting-the-bible/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">The Need for my Series on Interpreting the Bible</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2008/01/the-bible-christianity-and-me-briefly/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">The Bible, Christianity, and Me (Briefly)</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/annoyed-at-certain-christian-labels/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Annoyed at Certain Christian Labels</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2006/03/the-bible-and-theistic-evolution/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">The Bible and Theistic Evolution</a></li>
	<li>Powered by <a href="http://ajaydsouza.com/wordpress/plugins/contextual-related-posts/">Contextual Related Posts</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Interpreting the Bible IV &#8211; Scientific Statements</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iv-scientific-statements/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iv-scientific-statements/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Author Related]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible Study]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Criticism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Creation and Evolution]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[1 Kings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical interpretation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Genesis]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=1849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>In my daily reading I encounter many different types of literature, each of which relates to the science I know in a different way. For example, I might read a newspaper, in which case the question is just what is an article about. Is it about art? I will look at it through one [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In my daily reading I encounter many different types of literature, each of which relates to the science I know in a different way.  For example, I might read a newspaper, in which case the question is just what is an article about.  Is it about art?  I will look at it through one set of glasses.  A report on a scientific discovery?  My expectations change substantially.  I might read a book of fantasy, in which case I expect very little relationship to real science.  If I read a science text, however, I am going to judge it very critically on how well it conveys scientific information.</p>
	<p>In each of these cases, what constitutes a &#8220;mistake&#8221; is going to differ greatly.  &#8220;The sun sets in the west&#8221; is very proper in popular speech, in art, or in poetry.  It&#8217;s questionable in a story about science, and in general would only be used as an example of how inaccurate popular speech can be in a science text.</p>
	<p>If one criticized a poem for its scientific inaccuracy for such a statement, one would be viewed as odd.  Viewing the Bible that way is pretty standard.  Now I&#8217;m not denying here that the Bible has different types of literature in which scientific statements might be seen differently.  What I will say, however, is that the Bible has nothing in it that qualifies even as a popular news story about a scientific discovery.  It certainly has in it nothing close to a textbook on a scientific topic.</p>
	<p>Yet many people expect a specifically scientific type of accuracy when they read the Bible.  I believe this comes to some extent from the modern view of scientific knowledge as the best type of knowledge available.  We want scientific proof that God exists or that miracles happen, because we believe that&#8217;s the best category of evidence available.  We think the Bible should talk about science in <em>some</em> way, because science (in the modern science, not the older &#8220;general knowledge&#8221;) is the best type of knowledge there is.</p>
	<p>Of course, God may have a different idea.  Personally I would argue that God <em>does</em> talk about science, and he does so in the fabric of the universe.  We <em>hear</em> that message through scientific study.  I don&#8217;t want to get into the details of such a view here; suffice it to say it exists.</p>
	<p>But we still must be careful in saying that the Bible does not make scientific statements.  I&#8217;ve gotten into trouble on this before, because people often hear that as &#8220;The Bible doesn&#8217;t say anything correct about the physical world.&#8221;  That&#8217;s not the case and it&#8217;s not my point.  What I mean is that the Bible doesn&#8217;t make statements either with scientific precision, i.e. intended as testable hypotheses properly qualified, nor does it attempt to advance specifically scientific knowledge.</p>
	<p>Now there&#8217;s a lot of room for disagreement there.  Just how precisely must the Biblical statements agree with a modern scientific view?  Laying aside the question of whether the modern scientific understanding of any topic is correct (what will people think of our current knowledge in another 200 years, not to mention 2,000 or 4,000?), one can at least divide that between those who believe that the Bible need not agree with scientific knowledge in any particular way (though it may) or those who believe that where the Bible makes a statement that impinges on science in any way, it must be accurate.</p>
	<p>Let&#8217;s take a quick example, which I already mentioned previously.  We know that the Bible is not a mathematics text, yet it almost accidentally mentions the ratio that is PI, though not providing us with a number calculated to any decimal places in 1 Kings 7:23:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high.  A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely.  (NRSV)
</p></blockquote>
	<p>I know of some Biblical critics who are embarrassed that people bring this up as an objection to the Bible, and well they should be, because it really causes nobody any actual problems.  On the other hand, it illustrates what I am talking about quite nicely.</p>
	<p>There are several things that one might think about this statement:</p>
	<ol>
	<li>The writer is using approximations in his numbers</li>
	<li>The brazen sea isn&#8217;t precisely round, but perhaps oval, another type of approximation</li>
	<li>These are not builder&#8217;s plans, and thus the precise number is unnecessary</li>
	<li>There is no particular reason for the writer to provide us with the value of PI</li>
	</ol>
	<p>All of which are quite possibly true.  Some others have brought up issues such as measuring from the outside or the inside of the rim.  I would note that Biblical Hebrew doesn&#8217;t have an easy means of expressing decimal places, and fractions are a mite wordy.  So what is the difference here?  PI is 3.1416, which is itself rounded from 3.14159, which is rounded from&#8230;  Why do I choose a particular precision?  I do so according to my need, in this case my need to show how we approximate numbers on a regular basis.</p>
	<p>One could quite reasonably read the passage as &#8220;The sea was round, about 10 cubits across and about 30 cubits around the rim.&#8221;</p>
	<p>My point?  The precision of our statements of such topics depends on the need.  I heard a similar example yesterday in a store.  One of the clerks was giving directions.  He said, &#8220;You turn right and then go 2 or 3 miles, and you&#8217;ll find Walmart on the left.&#8221;  Is he giving lousy directions if Walmart is 3.3 miles?  2.7?  1.9?  Actually, if he follows the directions he&#8217;ll find where he&#8217;s going.</p>
	<p>Now compare this to directions I got about a year ago to find someone&#8217;s house.  I was told to turn right and then check my odometer, because I needed to go precisely 1.1 miles and turn right on a road that didn&#8217;t have a clear road sign.  I did so, and at 1.1 miles I turned right onto the specified road, and only saw the sign with the road name on it after I made the turn.  The clerk&#8217;s directions were good for his circumstances, but would have failed for mine.  On the other hand, giving a precise number to the tenth for finding Walmart would simply be distracting.</p>
	<p>To get back to Genesis 1, if one assumes it is intended as a scientific treatise, one should be concerned with things like how days would be calculated before the fourth day when the sun was created.  (Though I would note that one does not have to conclude from the text that the sun was actually created on the fourth day; it might be a case of revelation.)  One might also be concerned with what &#8220;day&#8221; was before the fourth day.  After all, the sun is created to &#8220;rule the day&#8221; suggesting that &#8220;day&#8221; already existed before the sun was there.  But now I&#8217;m descending into silliness.</p>
	<p>If, on the other hand, Genesis 1 is liturgy, there is no reason to expect a logical and scientific progression in the events.  But between these views we have any number of senses in which Genesis might be heard as a form of narrative history, in which case, while it need not make <em>scientifically precise</em> statements, it could well make statements that would impact scientific data.  For example, if the story says, &#8220;the sun set,&#8221; even if we allow the non-scientific nature of the way of indicating the end of the day, if there is no sun, the statement would be false&#8211;no sun, no setting.</p>
	<p>In each case one must look at the particular genre and the nature of what the author is trying to communicate within that genre (witness my two instances, both of giving directions, but with different requirements), in order to determine what type of statements to expect, and the precision one must expect of them.  A man describing the temple has no need to communicate the precise value of PI, while someone celebrating God&#8217;s creation of the world has no need to describe orbits or solar fusion.</p>
	<p>Now I personally believe that not only does the Bible not make scientific statements as I have described, but that it speaks its message into a context of the knowledge of the audience.  In other words, as God wishes to communicate things about his order, his control of creation, and his plan for humanity, he doesn&#8217;t distract them by saying that they don&#8217;t understand yet that the world is a sphere (though they did think it was round like a dinner plate), that the earth revolves around the sun rather than the reverse, or that stars were light years away.</p>
	<p>Those points, as interesting as they would be to us today, would be a distraction.  In fact, I would suggest that they would completely take over the more important message that the Bible has to deliver.</p>
	<p>We think scientific knowledge is the most important; God doesn&#8217;t agree, and he communicated according to his priorities, not ours.</p>
	<div id="crp_related">
<h2>Related Posts:</h2>
	<ul>
<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2005/09/not-taking-the-bible-literally/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Not Taking the Bible Literally</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2008/09/the-bible-does-not-contain-science/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">The Bible Does Not Contain Science</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2007/06/why-talk-about-evolution-in-church/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Why Talk about Evolution in Church?</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2007/06/brownback-on-faith-and-science/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Brownback on Faith and Science</a></li>
	<li><a href="http://henrysthreads.com/2007/05/rejecting-a-creationist-museum-challenge/" rel="bookmark" class="crp_title">Rejecting a Creationist Museum Challenge</a></li>
	<li>Powered by <a href="http://ajaydsouza.com/wordpress/plugins/contextual-related-posts/">Contextual Related Posts</a></li>
</ul>
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		<title>Interpreting the Bible III &#8211; The Impact of Inerrancy</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iii-the-impact-of-inerrancy/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2009/01/interpreting-the-bible-iii-the-impact-of-inerrancy/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Author Related]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible Translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inspiration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Creation and Evolution]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[KJV Only]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical literalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Daniel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Jeremiah]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Revelation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theistic Evolution]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tim LaHaye]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=1837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>Update (1/15/09): For those in the habit of reading posts and skipping comments, I want to note that there is an important and substantial exchange of comments between Peter Kirk (Gentle Wisdom), Jeremy Pierce (Parableman), and myself that helps clarify this issue substantially.</p> <p>In my first post in this series, I made the following [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><strong>Update (1/15/09):</strong>  For those in the habit of reading posts and skipping comments, I want to note that there is an important and substantial exchange of comments between Peter Kirk (<a href="http://www.qaya.org/blog">Gentle Wisdom</a>), Jeremy Pierce (<a href="http://parablemania.ektopos.com/">Parableman</a>), and myself that helps clarify this issue substantially.</p>
	<p>In my first post in this series, I made the following comment in response to a quote:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
While I certainly agree that the Bible is not inerrant, the rest simply does not follow. A simplistic idea of how one gets from scriptural text to doctrinal belief is posited and then discarded. An idea of the word of God that may or may not be correct (or more importantly held or not held by a community) is assumed and then dismissed.
</p></blockquote>
	<p>In that quote I kind of dismiss inerrancy from consideration and focus on the idea that one can automatically dismiss the Bible as God&#8217;s word because one has dismissed inerrancy.  I will continue to make the second point&#8211;inerrancy isn&#8217;t necessary to regarding the Bible as God&#8217;s word&#8211;but I need to comment further on inerrancy.</p>
	<p>In my experience most people think that a belief in Biblical inerrancy is a critical dividing line, and that is one is asked what difference inerrancy makes, one should answer (misusing Paul in Romans 3:2):  Much in every way!</p>
	<p>But inerrancy is something that is easy to misunderstand, and perhaps almost impossible to both understand and express in a way that is acceptable to everyone.  Someone is going to claim misrepresentation somewhere, even if one uses an official statement such as the <a href="http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html">Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy</a>.  I&#8217;m not going to work through this statement right now, but suffice it to say for the moment that I reject inerrancy, even as defined in the Chicago Statement.</p>
	<p>But there are many different ways of defining inerrancy, and nobody really owns the term so as to control its meaning.  Should one use the more academic definition?  Or perhaps the most popular view is correct.</p>
	<p>In conversation, I usually find that folks would like to define inerrancy simply as &#8220;the Bible doesn&#8217;t have any mistakes in it.&#8221;  That&#8217;s pretty simple and straightforward.  But does it work?  When someone nuances this position, they are often accused of some kind of weasel-wording in order to pretend that clear errors don&#8217;t actually exist.</p>
	<p>In fact, however, because of the complexity of the topic and the number of different claims that are made, one almost certainly must add <em>some</em> nuance to the definition in order to make any sense.</p>
	<p>The first question is simply what Bible one is referring to.  Is this a particular translation?  The KJV-Only advocates would claim that the KJV is without error, and they don&#8217;t accept a claim to believe in inerrancy from those who don&#8217;t make the claim of that particular translation.  They will ask, &#8220;What is your final authority?  Where is an inerrant document that I can get my hands on?&#8221;  So at a minimum, one must specify precisely what Bible is inerrant.</p>
	<p>One can choose between many translations, the Bible in its source languages, some particular manuscript in the source languages, or the autographs.  Each of these has interesting implications.  There are few claims of inerrancy for translations in general, certainly not from anyone familiar with the process of translation.  The &#8220;inerrant translation&#8221; idea is almost exclusively the product of the KJV-Only movement.</p>
	<p>Inerrancy in the original languages sounds good to those without acquaintance with the manuscripts, but quickly falls afoul of the facts of a variety of manuscripts, each with differences in the text.  Thus you will only rarely find a simple claim to inerrancy in the original languages apart from some specific claim about which text outside of popular discussion.  I do get this question from lay members in churches fairly frequently.  Academics of whatever theological persuasion, however, know better.</p>
	<p>This leads to two options:  1)  inerrancy of a particular text, usually asserted of the Byzantine or of the majority text, and 2) inerrancy of the autographs.  Since inerrancy of a particular text also provides difficulties, such as differences in the manuscripts within that tradition, such a claim is again only rarely made, or generally nuanced so as to mean &#8220;nearly 100% accurate&#8221; which amounts logically to the second claim:  Inerrancy of the autographs.</p>
	<p>With this there is the problem that we simply do not have the autographs.  Nonetheless, for definition purposes, we have a precise text at a precise point of time, even if we can&#8217;t lay hands on the precise text.  Opponents of the doctrine of inerrancy, including me, wonder just how important it can be to assert that an inaccessible text has a particular attribute.  But that is beside the point for my discussion here.</p>
	<p>I hope you can see why someone who asserts inerrancy must provide some further data.  When they say, &#8220;Inerrancy of the autographs&#8221; they aren&#8217;t tap dancing.  They&#8217;re just getting to the point of being precise enough so that someone can understand and discuss their claim.</p>
	<p>But now we get to just what one would call an error.  Here is where opponents of inerrancy outside the field of Biblical studies can get extremely impatient.  What&#8217;s an error?  Well, it&#8217;s a mistake!  PI is 3.0 (1 Kings 7:23)?  It&#8217;s a mistake!  Seven literal 24 hour days?  It didn&#8217;t happen.  It&#8217;s a mistake!</p>
	<p>So let&#8217;s ask another question.  It says in Judges 9:8 that &#8220;The trees once went out to anoint a king over them . . .&#8221;  So did the trees &#8220;go out&#8221;?  (Remember, this isn&#8217;t Narnia!)  Did they anoint a king?  Is it a mistake?  Well, such a passage can be true on a couple of levels, including whether the words were spoken by the person quoted.  If you quote a liar lying, is it a lie on your part?  But of course the real point in this passage is that it is a parable, and you are not intended to believe that the trees actually did this.</p>
	<p>I chose that obvious passage that nobody would take literally, because one popular idea of inerrancy is essentially equivalent to &#8220;the Bible is all literally true.&#8221;  Even &#8220;literally true&#8221; is problematic, because I have heard it interpreted to mean that the Bible is pretty much all literal (everyone has their exceptions) on the one hand, to someone who told me that &#8220;taking the Bible literally&#8221; meant &#8220;taking it as it is intended&#8221; so that he would take a passage figuratively, while claiming to take the entire Bible literally.  Personally, I think he was using the very common equation of &#8220;literally&#8221; with &#8220;true&#8221; and &#8220;figuratively&#8221; with &#8220;not-so-much true.&#8221;</p>
	<p>There&#8217;s a very popular variant of this is to take the Bible literally at any point at which it can be taken literally.  Tim LaHaye in his not-so-good book <a href="http://books.energion.com/ene_item.php?asin=0736916962">How to Study the Bible for Yourself</a>, p. 160, says:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
. . . A good rule to follow is to try to interpret each passage literally.  If this is obviously not the case, then as a last resort try to find the spiritual or symbolical truth it is communicating.
</p></blockquote>
	<p>Obviously he followed this principle in producing his interpretations of Revelation.  I don&#8217;t have his book at hand, but I believe Dr. David Jeremiah recommended attempting literal interpretation first in the book of Revelation (<a href="http://books.energion.com/ene_item.php?asin=084994368X">Escape the Coming Night</a>).  Though I cannot recall for certain that he explicitly recommends it, I know that he practices it.</p>
	<p>Where this view of inerrancy can be best tested, however, is in passages that might easily be taken either way.  These would, in my view, include Genesis 1-2, where one might quite justifiably argue various positions on the original intent, or passages that may be read as fiction or not, such as Jonah or Job.  Many mainline students of scriptures would be surprised at how many people find the issue of Ruth, Jonah, Esther, or Job as fiction controversial.  For some, however, having a story like that, which is not actually presented as a parable or illustration, not be true would violate their view of inerrancy.</p>
	<p>One of the best <em>very short</em> definitions of an academic notion of Biblical inerrancy is this:  The Bible is without error in what it intends to convey.  The problem with any short definition is that it lacks some details and nuance, but this one covers quite a lot of ground.  For example, if Jonah is fiction and intended to convey certain theological truths rather than a narrative history of a certain person in a certain period, that doesn&#8217;t violate inerrancy.  I have seen this stretched quite far, to the argument that one can accept inerrancy and date the book of Daniel in the 2nd century.</p>
	<p>This <a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2006/04/ernest-lucas-on-daniel/">argument was made by Ernest Lucas</a> in his <a href="http://books.energion.com/ene_item.php?asin=0830825193">commentary on Daniel</a> from the <a href="http://books.energion.com/ene_series.php?series=ACOT">Apolos Old Testament Commentary</a> series.  He doesn&#8217;t take sides himself, but he argues that one can use either dating for Daniel and still accept the doctrine of inerrancy.  This would involve understanding a great deal of prediction as history, a great deal of the story as fictional, along with the whole setting for the writing of the material.  Is it possible?  Indeed, most scholars believe that the setting, the story, and the predictions are all fictional, except for a very small portion that would be contemporary with, or in the immediate future of, the writer. In general, however, these same scholars don&#8217;t claim to believe in inerrancy.</p>
	<p>I would add one more way in which one might state that the Bible is without error&#8211;by claiming that the Bible is precisely the way God wanted it, i.e. that if there is an apparent or even real error of fact, it&#8217;s in there because God wants it there.  This would be hard even for me to disagree with, but I think it is so far from what anyone would hear me saying if I said &#8220;I accept inerrancy&#8221; that it would be lying for me to make the claim.</p>
	<p>So just how does Biblical inerrancy impact interpretation, which is, after all, the topic of this series?  Well, actually, as you can see, the type of inerrancy which Ernest Lucas seems to espouse doesn&#8217;t really eliminate any possible interpretation that I might claim myself.  I think that it does force one to be a bit disingenuous regarding the author&#8217;s intent.</p>
	<p>For example, if the writer of Daniel lived in the 2nd century BCE, wrote pseudonymously, invented an author and narrative or (more likely) borrowed it from folk tales, produced lengthy prophecies of the future but which weren&#8217;t <em>really</em> about the future, was the author lying in order to make his final prediction more convincing, or was he following literary conventions of his time?  In other words, did he intend people to realize that what he wrote was largely fictional?  One can debate this, but I&#8217;m afraid I would tend to support the idea that the &#8220;predictions&#8221; were developed to give weight to the rest of the book, and they would only give weight if people believed they had been written much earlier and had been fulfilled.</p>
	<p>But in terms of Genesis 1 &#038; 2, there is next to nothing that I would claim in interpreting this passage that could not be claimed by someone who accepts inerrancy.  In other words, inerrancy and the theory of evolution need not stand opposed, provided one accepts certain literary categories for the writings in question.</p>
	<p>Unless I get side-tracked again, which I probably will, I&#8217;m going to write on the Bible and scientific statements for my next post in this series.</p>
	<p>Previously posted:  <a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-i-obvious-exegesis/">part 1</a> and <a href="http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-ii-excursus-on-the-plain-sense/">part 2</a>.</p>
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		<title>Interpreting the Bible II: Excursus on the Plain Sense</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-ii-excursus-on-the-plain-sense/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2008/12/interpreting-the-bible-ii-excursus-on-the-plain-sense/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 04:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Author Related]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible Study]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Inerrancy]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Women in Ministry]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[complementarian]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Egalitarianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[exegesis]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=1770</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p>I want to tie up a few loose ends in my first post on this series as well as point out some things on which I will need to comment further. In particular, I read this post by John Hobbins that references a post by Wayne Leman regarding complementarianism and the &#8220;plain sense&#8221; of [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I want to tie up a few loose ends in my first post on this series as well as point out some things on which I will need to comment further.  In particular, I read <a href="http://ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/2008/12/arguments-in-favor-of-complementarianism.html">this post by John Hobbins</a> that references <a href="http://complegalitarian.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/why-complementarianism-is-compelling/">a post by Wayne Leman</a> regarding complementarianism and the &#8220;plain sense&#8221; of scripture.  I want to distinguish what I mean by &#8220;obvious exegesis&#8221; from the idea of &#8220;plain sense&#8221; and define what I would mean by either one.  One should note, of course, that what <em>I</em> mean by those terms may differ from the way others use similar terms.</p>
	<p>One might ask why I would bring in a second controversial topic when I started with evolution.  Here, at least, there is a method to my madness.  I think it&#8217;s very important to check out methods of interpretation by applying them to other texts and other topics.  Very often we change our approach to interpretation when the topic or text changes&#8211;always a bad sign.</p>
	<p>I recall one online discussion about plain text of scripture in which the texts were limited to the Sermon on the Mount.  The individual with whom I was discussing started with Matthew 5:33-37.  He told me I was in violation because I said I would take an oath as a juror, or in the unlikely event I took a public office.</p>
	<p>No discussion worked, even to the point of getting him to understand the possibility that someone else might understand the application of the text differently.  He appealed to the &#8220;plain sense,&#8221; and after several rounds of discussion defined this as the way an average American high school student would understand the text.</p>
	<p>So I pointed him to Matthew 5:29-30 in which Jesus says to pluck out your right eye if it offends, or to cut off your hand.  How would the average high school student understand that command?  Now he had a very complex explanation which involved fulfillment of the command through the willingness to face martyrdom for one&#8217;s faith&#8211;a much more allegorical explanation than my view that 33-37 is a hyperbolic way of saying &#8220;Just tell the truth!&#8221;</p>
	<p>One point here is that the &#8220;plain sense,&#8221; however defined, is very often not all that plain, and the way in which one comes to a &#8220;plain sense&#8221; in one text may differ substantially from the way in which one discovers it in another.</p>
	<p>But further, the idea of plain sense is not the same as what I mean here by &#8220;obvious exegesis.&#8221;  People have very little patience for distinguishing between the historical meaning of a text and it&#8217;s application, but the distinction is important.  These terms are not always used consistently, but I&#8217;m using &#8220;exegesis&#8221; to refer to that historical meaning, or more precisely the meaning of the original author to his or her audience.</p>
	<p>That historical meaning is much easier to discern than is the application, but even so, one of the main points of this series is that it is not only difficult to define, such as whether one goes into the prehistory of a redacted text, but difficult to achieve once you&#8217;ve chosen the precise target.  It simply isn&#8217;t always all that obvious what an ancient text means.</p>
	<p>Application, which is usually in view when one hears &#8220;plain sense,&#8221; is even more complex than is the historical meaning.  The fact is that one cannot keep all the commands in scripture.  Many of them are obviously intended for particular times, but even amongst the rest there are many commands that do not work well together, or which we would even regard as evil, such as the death penalty for sabbath breaking.</p>
	<p>This isn&#8217;t exactly a new problem, invented by modernist or liberal Christians (perhaps like me?) who want to avoid following the Bible, but don&#8217;t want to admit it.  Acts 15 describes an early church conference at which the discussion was precisely about what commands would apply to what people, particularly gentiles.  In 1 Corinthians, starting with chapter 8, Paul expresses a somewhat different theology on the issue.  The arguments all around might be very similar to modern ones.  One side might well have relied on the plain sense of scripture, while the other relied more on theological nuances.</p>
	<p>Now the topic of John Hobbins&#8217; and Wayne Leman&#8217;s posts, the complementarian vs egalitarian debate, is a good test case.  Let me limit myself to Paul as an illustration.</p>
	<p>There are egalitarians who believe Paul was actually an egalitarian, and that there are good explanations for all of his comments that make them consistent with egalitarianism.  There are those who believe that Paul personally had a problem with women, but that egalitarianism is nonetheless the correct theological position today.</p>
	<p>Complementarians generally would regard Paul as supportive of their position, but this depends to large extent on the idea that we today should do the same thing as Paul did in this particular case.</p>
	<p>When I discussed my own position (very egalitarian), I cited Galatians 3:28, &#8220;no more . . . male or female&#8221; in support of my position.  Do I think Paul intends here to support an egalitarian position?  If so, why does he elsewhere forbid women to teach?</p>
	<p>The fact is that I <em>don&#8217;t</em> think Paul is an egalitarian, or that he intends to support egalitarianism here.  I think he got pretty close to erasing the Jew or Greek boundary, and probably anticipated seeing slave or free become equal in practice.  I doubt he thought of a day when women would be pastors on an equal basis with men.</p>
	<p>So how can I be egalitarian and also claim to give any authority to the Bible?  Well, there are certainly many things that I think were appropriate for a particular time or place, but are not appropriate for others.  What Paul taught in his pastoral messages to his churches is not good advice for he 21st century.</p>
	<p>So I&#8217;m arrogant enough to put myself above Paul?  Well, yes, in the sense that I live in the 21st century, and he most definitely didn&#8217;t.  I get to look at my situation and my time and try to apply the principles that come from the gospel to what I find here.</p>
	<p>I think Paul glimpsed this, and points to it in passages such as Galatians 3:28 or Romans 16:7 when he calls Junia as apostle.  But the path to that application is nothing like direct, and nothing that I think anyone would define as the &#8220;plain sense.&#8221;</p>
	<p>I believe it permits me to express the historical meaning without having to bend it to modern practice, while at the same time letting the gospel guide me beyond the word to a more appropriate application today.</p>
	<p>In conclusion, let me reiterate that my point here is not to provide a substantial support for any particular position but rather to show that Biblical interpretation, from historical meaning to current application is much more complex in practice than most people believe, and that this complexity is not something new.</p>
	<p>In later posts I will provide further examples of cases in which multiple and perhaps odd interpretations of scripture have been made within scripture itself and in the history of the church.  I also want to discuss both the definition of inerrancy and its application in interpretation.</p>
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		<title>Adrian and Dave Warnock on the Atonement</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2008/11/adrian-and-dave-warnock-on-the-atonement/</link>
		<comments>http://henrysthreads.com/2008/11/adrian-and-dave-warnock-on-the-atonement/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Atonement]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[ <p>So far as I know, no, they&#8217;re not related.</p> <p>Adrian is concerned with the suggestion that anything in the Bible might be culturally conditioned. Wake up and smell the coffee, Adrian! Practically all of Hebrew scriptures is about leading people from here to there. The narrative is built around the exodus, about physically moving [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So far as I know, no, they&#8217;re not related.</p>
	<p><a href="http://adrianwarnock.com/2008/11/atonement-debate-steve-chalke-argues.html">Adrian is concerned with the suggestion that anything in the Bible might be culturally conditioned.</a>  Wake up and smell the coffee, Adrian!  Practically all of Hebrew scriptures is about leading people from <em>here</em> to <em>there</em>.  The narrative is built around the exodus, about <em>physically</em> moving from here to there, and then that becomes a metaphor for spirituality.  On what basis would one imagine that what God taught them would be anything other than culturally conditioned?</p>
	<p>But there is explicit scripture for this as well:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
I also gave them statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live. &#8212; Ezekiel 20:25, my translation
</p></blockquote>
	<p>The whole context of that verse is worth studying, as is the entire book of Ezekiel.  In fact, looking at Ezekiel and Jeremiah as they deal with the Babylonian exile is a theological exercise well worth the time.  The exile did not occur with its theological context all ready to go.  These prophets, and 2nd Isaiah after them, had to build that context in the people&#8217;s mind.  The success of this enterprise is demonstrated by the survival of Judaism.</p>
	<p>I think Paul reflects this somewhat with his concept of the law as a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24).  God&#8217;s revelation is not always intended to be eternal in the form in which it was given.  Even Jesus, God in the flesh, had a temporal context in which he spoke and acted.</p>
	<p>Dave Warnock, however, responds to this in somewhat more detail and with some excellent scriptures.  I commend his post, <a href="http://42.blogs.warnock.me.uk/2008/11/sub-biblical-arguments-against-steve-chalke.html">Sub-Biblical arguments against Steve Chalke</a> to you for study and thought.</p>
	<p>Now that you did that (you <em>did</em> go and read Dave&#8217;s post, right?) let me just comment that one doesn&#8217;t honor scripture by pretending it is something it is not, and was never intended to be.  One honors scripture, I believe, by taking it as it is, as much as one is able.<br />
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