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	<title>Comments on: Am I a Complementarian?</title>
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	<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian</description>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128976</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2389#comment-128976</guid>
		<description>Perhaps it&#039;s because I&#039;m used to getting that accusation explicitly.  :-)

My actual objection to that argument is this:  If men and women are essentially different, why do we assume some sort of indoctrination is necessary to either reinforce that or to make them so?  Will they not turn out different?

Regarding your prior comment your definition is what I&#039;m comfortable with.  I think the real argument here is not to discover what men and women are like, but rather to understand what relevant scriptures have to say to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s because I&#8217;m used to getting that accusation explicitly.  <img src='http://henrysthreads.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My actual objection to that argument is this:  If men and women are essentially different, why do we assume some sort of indoctrination is necessary to either reinforce that or to make them so?  Will they not turn out different?</p>
<p>Regarding your prior comment your definition is what I&#8217;m comfortable with.  I think the real argument here is not to discover what men and women are like, but rather to understand what relevant scriptures have to say to us.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128973</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2389#comment-128973</guid>
		<description>I noticed the following interesting argument in Michael&#039;s post:

1. If we are not complementarians, we will not train men to be men and women to be women.
2. If we do not train men to be men and women to be women, then there is no way according to which we are training people at all.
3. Therefore, if we are not complementarians, there is no way according to which we are training anyone.

There are plenty of things complementarians might accuse egalitarians of doing, but it&#039;s pretty crazy to think they follow nothing in the Bible and do not train their children in any righteousness at all simply because they don&#039;t accept complementarian gender-related stuff. You say he&#039;s got an irenic tone that promotes unity, but he&#039;s smuggling in a pretty serious accusation against egalitarians with this argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noticed the following interesting argument in Michael&#8217;s post:</p>
<p>1. If we are not complementarians, we will not train men to be men and women to be women.<br />
2. If we do not train men to be men and women to be women, then there is no way according to which we are training people at all.<br />
3. Therefore, if we are not complementarians, there is no way according to which we are training anyone.</p>
<p>There are plenty of things complementarians might accuse egalitarians of doing, but it&#8217;s pretty crazy to think they follow nothing in the Bible and do not train their children in any righteousness at all simply because they don&#8217;t accept complementarian gender-related stuff. You say he&#8217;s got an irenic tone that promotes unity, but he&#8217;s smuggling in a pretty serious accusation against egalitarians with this argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128971</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2389#comment-128971</guid>
		<description>I can certainly cite complementarians who except very little intrinsic difference between men and women that grounds the different roles. D.A. Carson, for instance, insists that it&#039;s a divine decision that grounds it. Even a more essentialist view like S.M. Baugh (I believe), which takes there to be natural capacities that are different on average doesn&#039;t have to see those differences as grounding the different roles but rather might see it as the reverse. The differences are God&#039;s way of making our tendencies fit the already-decided-upon role differences.

In the other direction, I can imagine an egalitarian who thinks women should be prominent in preaching and in authority over men in the church and that men and women should be equal in decision-making and authority in marriage but who thinks all manner of other characteristics are gender-determined in a way that would still count as essentialist.

So I think essentialism is neither required for complementarianism (as Carson and Baugh demonstrate) nor incompatible with egalitarianism (as your case shows, and my suggestion makes even more clear).

A better way to define complementarianism is that it&#039;s the view that God has specifically limited women&#039;s roles in ministry and marriage, usually in the case of the church in terms of authority over men and/or teaching over men, and in the case of marriage with some kind of authority or submission that isn&#039;t fully symmetrical. How and why God does this will vary from view to view, although I&#039;d say it&#039;s no longer complementarianism if it involves a view of ontological superiority of men.

Egalitarianism, I would say, is the view that God has not limited women&#039;s roles in the church or home in a way that makes them asymmetrical to men&#039;s roles, at least in theory. (Egalitarianism is compatible with any particular congregation having a man in authority over every member.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can certainly cite complementarians who except very little intrinsic difference between men and women that grounds the different roles. D.A. Carson, for instance, insists that it&#8217;s a divine decision that grounds it. Even a more essentialist view like S.M. Baugh (I believe), which takes there to be natural capacities that are different on average doesn&#8217;t have to see those differences as grounding the different roles but rather might see it as the reverse. The differences are God&#8217;s way of making our tendencies fit the already-decided-upon role differences.</p>
<p>In the other direction, I can imagine an egalitarian who thinks women should be prominent in preaching and in authority over men in the church and that men and women should be equal in decision-making and authority in marriage but who thinks all manner of other characteristics are gender-determined in a way that would still count as essentialist.</p>
<p>So I think essentialism is neither required for complementarianism (as Carson and Baugh demonstrate) nor incompatible with egalitarianism (as your case shows, and my suggestion makes even more clear).</p>
<p>A better way to define complementarianism is that it&#8217;s the view that God has specifically limited women&#8217;s roles in ministry and marriage, usually in the case of the church in terms of authority over men and/or teaching over men, and in the case of marriage with some kind of authority or submission that isn&#8217;t fully symmetrical. How and why God does this will vary from view to view, although I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s no longer complementarianism if it involves a view of ontological superiority of men.</p>
<p>Egalitarianism, I would say, is the view that God has not limited women&#8217;s roles in the church or home in a way that makes them asymmetrical to men&#8217;s roles, at least in theory. (Egalitarianism is compatible with any particular congregation having a man in authority over every member.)</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128969</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Henry,
Is this a difficult matter to arrive at a decision, is it controversial.  It seems like it must be :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry,<br />
Is this a difficult matter to arrive at a decision, is it controversial.  It seems like it must be <img src='http://henrysthreads.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128964</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2389#comment-128964</guid>
		<description>My initial starting point on this was Acts 15, where it seems to me the apostles are dealing with just such a question.  I was pointed that way by Alden Thompson, author of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0816323402?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=henryneufeld&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0816323402&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Beyond Common Ground: Why Liberals and Conservatives Need Each Other&lt;/a&gt;, which discusses his views on that.  I would add, however, that one might also consider Paul&#039;s comments in 1 Corinthians and Galatians in which he differs a bit on the essentials, particularly dealing with food offered to idols in 1 Corinthians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My initial starting point on this was Acts 15, where it seems to me the apostles are dealing with just such a question.  I was pointed that way by Alden Thompson, author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0816323402?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=henryneufeld&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0816323402" rel="nofollow">Beyond Common Ground: Why Liberals and Conservatives Need Each Other</a>, which discusses his views on that.  I would add, however, that one might also consider Paul&#8217;s comments in 1 Corinthians and Galatians in which he differs a bit on the essentials, particularly dealing with food offered to idols in 1 Corinthians.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128963</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2389#comment-128963</guid>
		<description>Hi Henry,
I just happened upon your site here while Googling.
Your statement here interests me: &quot;We further agree that we are not dealing with an essential of the faith. It is an issue on which I have a strongly held and deeply felt position, but not one on which we must divide the body of Christ.&quot;
Can you recommend some sources (which in your experience you have found helpful) that can help me understand what the NT teaches concerning what is essential and what is not?  
Blessings, Robert Firestone</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Henry,<br />
I just happened upon your site here while Googling.<br />
Your statement here interests me: &#8220;We further agree that we are not dealing with an essential of the faith. It is an issue on which I have a strongly held and deeply felt position, but not one on which we must divide the body of Christ.&#8221;<br />
Can you recommend some sources (which in your experience you have found helpful) that can help me understand what the NT teaches concerning what is essential and what is not?<br />
Blessings, Robert Firestone</p>
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		<title>By: Answering a Question on Egalitarianism &#171; Threads from Henry&#39;s Web</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2010/02/am-i-a-complementarian/comment-page-1/#comment-128960</link>
		<dc:creator>Answering a Question on Egalitarianism &#171; Threads from Henry&#39;s Web</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://henrysthreads.com/?p=2389#comment-128960</guid>
		<description>[...] Am I a Complementarian?  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Am I a Complementarian?  [...]</p>
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