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	<title>Comments on: The Danger of Teaching the Controversy</title>
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	<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian</description>
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		<title>By: Threads from Henry&#8217;s Web &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Teach the Controversy about Geocentrism</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-64163</link>
		<dc:creator>Threads from Henry&#8217;s Web &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Teach the Controversy about Geocentrism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-64163</guid>
		<description>[...] my previous post The Danger of Teaching the Controversy, I suggested that one of the problems with teaching the controversy was just which controversies [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my previous post The Danger of Teaching the Controversy, I suggested that one of the problems with teaching the controversy was just which controversies [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-64157</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-64157</guid>
		<description>OK, it&#039;s interesting to find someone so far out of touch with reality that even &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; see no point debating them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, it&#8217;s interesting to find someone so far out of touch with reality that even <em>I</em> see no point debating them.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wyatt</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-64102</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wyatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 05:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-64102</guid>
		<description>&quot;...Should science teachers be asked to teach the controvery on geocentrism? ...&quot;

Yes.

And &lt;a href=&quot;http://veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/2007/08/galileo-was-wrong-volume-ii-released.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; are the recommended text books.

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;Should science teachers be asked to teach the controvery on geocentrism? &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>And <a href="http://veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/2007/08/galileo-was-wrong-volume-ii-released.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a> are the recommended text books.</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-60526</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 19:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-60526</guid>
		<description>Sorry it has taken so long to respond.  I&#039;d be delighted to write a guest post if you still want one.  E-mail me at henry at energion.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry it has taken so long to respond.  I&#8217;d be delighted to write a guest post if you still want one.  E-mail me at henry at energion.com.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-60047</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-60047</guid>
		<description>I think you are correct to comment that there is really not much of a scientific controversy, but there is a political one, and thus there is need for more education, and not merely for us to point out that the overwhelming majority of the experts are on our side.

People need to understand how science works, and how modern communications make it possible for unorthodox ideas, even unorthodox ideas without any merit, to get a hearing.  That doesn&#039;t mean, of course, that they need to be taught in the High School science classroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are correct to comment that there is really not much of a scientific controversy, but there is a political one, and thus there is need for more education, and not merely for us to point out that the overwhelming majority of the experts are on our side.</p>
<p>People need to understand how science works, and how modern communications make it possible for unorthodox ideas, even unorthodox ideas without any merit, to get a hearing.  That doesn&#8217;t mean, of course, that they need to be taught in the High School science classroom.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-60044</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-60044</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Personally, i’m not interested in seeing a theory taught in any school unless all angles and viewpoints are taken into consideration. I think that ‘teach the controversy” is a bit of a cliched attempt to get past the Darwin police that prevent the ugly side of Darwinism from being looked at.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Your comment might have validity if:  1)  Evolution was not examined critically and 2) if ID were a actually a valid critique of evolution.</p>
<p>The problem that certain people seem to have is that critical examination of evolution in a scientific sense simply seems to substantiate the theory.  Thus non-scientific approaches are required.</p>
<p>Philosophically, we may discuss what is beyond evolution, but that&#8217;s not a subject for science classes.</p>
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		<title>By: Corkscrew</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-59867</link>
		<dc:creator>Corkscrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-59867</guid>
		<description>So, as per Henry&#039;s essay, you support the teaching of the heliocentrism &quot;controversy&quot;? This is the problem: at present, there are no credible angles apart from the evolutionary one. There is no evidence to even hint that forces other than evolutionary ones (natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, speciation, etc) are at work in the &quot;design&quot; of organisms.

And, if there was an intelligent entity at work, there would be plenty of opportunities to discover such evidence. If the ToE was wrong, you&#039;d be able to prove it without leaving your chair. For example:

1) Find sequence data for two different genes across four different species (using a database like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=search&amp;db=homologene&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one&lt;/a&gt;).

2) Build phylogenetic graphs for these genes (using a tool like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dina.dk/~sestoft/bsa/Match7Applet.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one&lt;/a&gt;).

3) Compare the two graphs. If they are not &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology#Elementary_introduction&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;topologically equivalent&lt;/a&gt; then congratulations, you&#039;ve found a strong piece of evidence against evolution.

What this procedure is testing for is the existence of any migration of genetic material from one lineage to another. Remember the GM food controversy? In a transgenic species, the DNA that&#039;s been &quot;imported&quot; from one species to another will have a different family tree than the other genes in that species.

If our DNA had been tinkered with by an intelligent entity, you&#039;d expect to see precisely this effect. Engineers and programmers generally try to reuse their existing work where possible. I believe that this is the usual creationist explanation for similarities between organisms, so it&#039;s accepted by everyone: design implies gene reuse across organisms.

Why, then, do we have so much trouble finding genes that ignore an organism&#039;s proposed family tree? The theory of evolution is the only option I&#039;m aware of that even explains this, let alone predicts it.

This is just one of many pieces of evidence all leading to the same conclusion: any intelligent entity that helped design us did it in a way that&#039;s indistinguishable from evolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, as per Henry&#8217;s essay, you support the teaching of the heliocentrism &#8220;controversy&#8221;? This is the problem: at present, there are no credible angles apart from the evolutionary one. There is no evidence to even hint that forces other than evolutionary ones (natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, speciation, etc) are at work in the &#8220;design&#8221; of organisms.</p>
<p>And, if there was an intelligent entity at work, there would be plenty of opportunities to discover such evidence. If the ToE was wrong, you&#8217;d be able to prove it without leaving your chair. For example:</p>
<p>1) Find sequence data for two different genes across four different species (using a database like <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=search&amp;db=homologene" rel="nofollow">this one</a>).</p>
<p>2) Build phylogenetic graphs for these genes (using a tool like <a href="http://www.dina.dk/~sestoft/bsa/Match7Applet.html" rel="nofollow">this one</a>).</p>
<p>3) Compare the two graphs. If they are not <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology#Elementary_introduction" rel="nofollow">topologically equivalent</a> then congratulations, you&#8217;ve found a strong piece of evidence against evolution.</p>
<p>What this procedure is testing for is the existence of any migration of genetic material from one lineage to another. Remember the GM food controversy? In a transgenic species, the DNA that&#8217;s been &#8220;imported&#8221; from one species to another will have a different family tree than the other genes in that species.</p>
<p>If our DNA had been tinkered with by an intelligent entity, you&#8217;d expect to see precisely this effect. Engineers and programmers generally try to reuse their existing work where possible. I believe that this is the usual creationist explanation for similarities between organisms, so it&#8217;s accepted by everyone: design implies gene reuse across organisms.</p>
<p>Why, then, do we have so much trouble finding genes that ignore an organism&#8217;s proposed family tree? The theory of evolution is the only option I&#8217;m aware of that even explains this, let alone predicts it.</p>
<p>This is just one of many pieces of evidence all leading to the same conclusion: any intelligent entity that helped design us did it in a way that&#8217;s indistinguishable from evolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Wakim</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-59781</link>
		<dc:creator>Wakim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-59781</guid>
		<description>The best response to the teach the controversy is &quot;what controversy?&quot;  Scientists overwhelming support some form of evolution over a bronze age story.  The evidence also overwhelming supports evolution and common ancestry over any bronze age creation stories, or any half baked notions deriving from such bronze ages tales.  If anyone had scientific evidence that called evolution into question they would have published it in a peer reviewed scientific journal by now, and no one has.  Yes the creationists and Idists out there would now say something about scientists conspiring to keep such evidence out of peer reviewed journals, (playing the martyr card as they do so well).  I would have to agree scientists are conspiring to keep SCIENCE in scientific publications.  A bunch of random statements that sound quasi-scientific written by people with Ph.Ds from diploma mills doesn&#039;t really count as science....or even anything close to evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best response to the teach the controversy is &#8220;what controversy?&#8221;  Scientists overwhelming support some form of evolution over a bronze age story.  The evidence also overwhelming supports evolution and common ancestry over any bronze age creation stories, or any half baked notions deriving from such bronze ages tales.  If anyone had scientific evidence that called evolution into question they would have published it in a peer reviewed scientific journal by now, and no one has.  Yes the creationists and Idists out there would now say something about scientists conspiring to keep such evidence out of peer reviewed journals, (playing the martyr card as they do so well).  I would have to agree scientists are conspiring to keep SCIENCE in scientific publications.  A bunch of random statements that sound quasi-scientific written by people with Ph.Ds from diploma mills doesn&#8217;t really count as science&#8230;.or even anything close to evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: &#160; Philophronos Blogger Roundup&#160;-&#160;Pursuing Holiness</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-59691</link>
		<dc:creator>&#160; Philophronos Blogger Roundup&#160;-&#160;Pursuing Holiness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-59691</guid>
		<description>[...] Henry Neufeld takes on the evolution/creation debate again, this time on how it plays out in the school system, in The Danger of Teaching the Controversy. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Henry Neufeld takes on the evolution/creation debate again, this time on how it plays out in the school system, in The Danger of Teaching the Controversy. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Black Knight</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/08/the-danger-of-teaching-the-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-59568</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=847#comment-59568</guid>
		<description>Henry,

I&#039;ve enjoyed your weblog for a while, now.  As you know, I&#039;m a practising scientist, and I keep my own weblog sanctioned by the university of Sydney.  

The other day I saw a flyer for one of these ID muppets who is giving a talk soon at the Uni.  I stated early on at the Labrats that I would not comment on the whole ID/creationism thing, but I got quite riled at the flyer; not because of what it said, but because of the guerilla comments hand-written on it - talk of &#039;loony Christians&#039; and what not.  It was indicative of the general view that all Christians believe in Creationism or ID and are therefore to be mocked.  Now, I don&#039;t mind being mocked for believing in the power of Christ as life for those who are dead, but this just gets my goat.

So. . . I&#039;m wondering whether you&#039;d like to write a guest post at the Labrats along the lines of what you&#039;ve written above?  I won&#039;t be offended if you decline, obviously :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve enjoyed your weblog for a while, now.  As you know, I&#8217;m a practising scientist, and I keep my own weblog sanctioned by the university of Sydney.  </p>
<p>The other day I saw a flyer for one of these ID muppets who is giving a talk soon at the Uni.  I stated early on at the Labrats that I would not comment on the whole ID/creationism thing, but I got quite riled at the flyer; not because of what it said, but because of the guerilla comments hand-written on it &#8211; talk of &#8216;loony Christians&#8217; and what not.  It was indicative of the general view that all Christians believe in Creationism or ID and are therefore to be mocked.  Now, I don&#8217;t mind being mocked for believing in the power of Christ as life for those who are dead, but this just gets my goat.</p>
<p>So. . . I&#8217;m wondering whether you&#8217;d like to write a guest post at the Labrats along the lines of what you&#8217;ve written above?  I won&#8217;t be offended if you decline, obviously <img src='http://henrysthreads.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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