Comments on: Divine Child Abuse and the Use of Scripture http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/ Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:11:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Chris Torvik http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-54496 Chris Torvik Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:49:59 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-54496 "Could it be that the immortality that we all inherently seek can only be granted to "perfect" (for lack of a better French word) people, due to the inherent calamities an immortal entity may wreck on the universe . And hey, once you're immortal - by definition, there is no stopping you - because your, well, immortal. To me, this is the only reason any of the "sinless in God's eyes" stuff could make sense. Not that it necessarily does make sense, or is true. I don't know. This is just the only way that it could make sense, to me." “Could it be that the immortality that we all inherently seek can only be granted to “perfect” (for lack of a better French word) people, due to the inherent calamities an immortal entity may wreck on the universe .

And hey, once you’re immortal – by definition, there is no stopping you – because your, well, immortal.

To me, this is the only reason any of the “sinless in God’s eyes” stuff could make sense. Not that it necessarily does make sense, or is true. I don’t know. This is just the only way that it could make sense, to me.”

]]> By: Threads from Henry’s Web » Blog Archive » Eastern Orthodox Tradition and Atonement http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-53065 Threads from Henry’s Web » Blog Archive » Eastern Orthodox Tradition and Atonement Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:13:32 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-53065 [...] Olson (Pseudo-Polymath) commented on an earlier post: If you have the time, could you relate this statement First, no matter what stream of [...] [...] Olson (Pseudo-Polymath) commented on an earlier post: If you have the time, could you relate this statement First, no matter what stream of [...]

]]> By: Henry Neufeld http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-53055 Henry Neufeld Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:20:31 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-53055 Actually, forget I asked for the links. I read right past your linked "this" and missed the source of the quote entirely. Apologies! Actually, forget I asked for the links. I read right past your linked “this” and missed the source of the quote entirely. Apologies!

]]> By: Mark Olson http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-53041 Mark Olson Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:11:09 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-53041 Well, that link was supposed to be a start. I'll dig up some more links and references. Well, that link was supposed to be a start. I’ll dig up some more links and references.

]]> By: Henry Neufeld http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-52945 Henry Neufeld Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:40:58 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-52945 I may need some clarification on the question. My argument for several weeks has been that the atonement is not defined by penal substitution, but rather that PSA is one metaphor among many and not the central metaphor. When I say atonement is near the center, I do not mean PSA. I see the incarnation as absolutely the center, expressed liturgically through the Eucharist and ethically through the two laws (love for God and love for neighbor) which get their Christian meaning from the incarnation. Atonement follows immediately from the incarnation, and can be described in various ways. Penal substitution isn't even the only version of substitution. As an aside, were I asked to explain why Jesus had to die as Brian McLaren was, I would say that the incarnation would be incomplete if Jesus didn't share all characteristics of his brethren, and experiencing death is an integral part of that. Thus I am rather happy to hear that the Eastern Orthodox tradition does not use penal substitution. I would love to read some of what they do. Could you recommend some eastern church fathers I should read and particular references? I'm more acquainted with the western fathers, though friends often tease me that I don't know anything that happened after 100 AD. They're not entirely wrong, either. This is a subject I'm always happy to discuss. I may need some clarification on the question. My argument for several weeks has been that the atonement is not defined by penal substitution, but rather that PSA is one metaphor among many and not the central metaphor.

When I say atonement is near the center, I do not mean PSA. I see the incarnation as absolutely the center, expressed liturgically through the Eucharist and ethically through the two laws (love for God and love for neighbor) which get their Christian meaning from the incarnation. Atonement follows immediately from the incarnation, and can be described in various ways. Penal substitution isn’t even the only version of substitution.

As an aside, were I asked to explain why Jesus had to die as Brian McLaren was, I would say that the incarnation would be incomplete if Jesus didn’t share all characteristics of his brethren, and experiencing death is an integral part of that.

Thus I am rather happy to hear that the Eastern Orthodox tradition does not use penal substitution. I would love to read some of what they do. Could you recommend some eastern church fathers I should read and particular references? I’m more acquainted with the western fathers, though friends often tease me that I don’t know anything that happened after 100 AD. They’re not entirely wrong, either.

This is a subject I’m always happy to discuss.

]]> By: Mark Olson http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-52939 Mark Olson Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:11:51 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-52939 If you have the time, could you relate this statement <blockquote>First, no matter what stream of Christianity one belongs to, the atonement comes out somewhere near the center.</blockquote> With the <a href="http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/?cat=29" rel="nofollow">this</a> <blockquote>On the subject of the atonement, the Eastern Orthodox tradition has some quite different ideas to the Protestant tradition, and the whole paradigm of salvation tends to be very different. Many of the essential protestant concepts such as original sin, penal substitutionary atonement, and salvation by faith are not present, and instead other very different ideas tend to be utilized. The Eastern Orthodox church traces its tradition and teachings very strongly to the writings of the church fathers of the first millennia.</blockquote> Thanks, whether or not you choose to take me up on my question. :) If you have the time, could you relate this statement
First, no matter what stream of Christianity one belongs to, the atonement comes out somewhere near the center.

With the this

On the subject of the atonement, the Eastern Orthodox tradition has some quite different ideas to the Protestant tradition, and the whole paradigm of salvation tends to be very different. Many of the essential protestant concepts such as original sin, penal substitutionary atonement, and salvation by faith are not present, and instead other very different ideas tend to be utilized. The Eastern Orthodox church traces its tradition and teachings very strongly to the writings of the church fathers of the first millennia.

Thanks, whether or not you choose to take me up on my question. :)

]]> By: Pseudo-Polymath » Blog Archive » Morning Highlights http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/divine-child-abuse-and-the-use-of-scripture/comment-page-1/#comment-52792 Pseudo-Polymath » Blog Archive » Morning Highlights Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:51:18 +0000 http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=799#comment-52792 [...] Henry Neufeld on “divine child abuse”, a post to think about at Threads from Henry’s Web. [...] [...] Henry Neufeld on “divine child abuse”, a post to think about at Threads from Henry’s Web. [...]

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