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	<title>Comments on: Christian Politicians aren&#8217;t Perfect, Just Forgive Them</title>
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	<description>Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian</description>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-55352</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 02:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Both Joe and I were willing to admit that other things related to this turn out to look an awful lot like hypocrisy. This is not about word games in order to defend anyone. I wasn&#039;t about defending him, or I wouldn&#039;t have said what he did was wrong. I was criticizing people who are misusing the English language in order to score political points for the left by making this particular sin into something that it&#039;s not. Since (as Joe points out) hypocrisy is the only sin remaining for many on the left, they can capitalize on that if they call this hypocrisy. They can&#039;t do that as easily without the use of this word. So they use it willy-nilly, and I wanted to offer a bit of a corrective. That&#039;s not a word game, and it&#039;s certainly not a word game in order to pretend that adultery is ok. I really have trouble seeing how you thought I could possibly be defending adultery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both Joe and I were willing to admit that other things related to this turn out to look an awful lot like hypocrisy. This is not about word games in order to defend anyone. I wasn&#8217;t about defending him, or I wouldn&#8217;t have said what he did was wrong. I was criticizing people who are misusing the English language in order to score political points for the left by making this particular sin into something that it&#8217;s not. Since (as Joe points out) hypocrisy is the only sin remaining for many on the left, they can capitalize on that if they call this hypocrisy. They can&#8217;t do that as easily without the use of this word. So they use it willy-nilly, and I wanted to offer a bit of a corrective. That&#8217;s not a word game, and it&#8217;s certainly not a word game in order to pretend that adultery is ok. I really have trouble seeing how you thought I could possibly be defending adultery.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54720</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>OK, you graciously took responsibility for any unclarity in writing, and I will do so for any errors in my reading.

I would agree with your points here, including the absence of any standards, though I might even be going lighter on him than you did.  I do believe a politicians fidelity in marriage, and of course living up to the standards he preaches are important.  It&#039;s a problem I have with Giuliani.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, you graciously took responsibility for any unclarity in writing, and I will do so for any errors in my reading.</p>
<p>I would agree with your points here, including the absence of any standards, though I might even be going lighter on him than you did.  I do believe a politicians fidelity in marriage, and of course living up to the standards he preaches are important.  It&#8217;s a problem I have with Giuliani.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54718</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54718</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m reminded of a &quot;sin -&gt; human falliability -&gt; forgive -&gt; sin ....&quot; cycle that was discussed on the LinuxSA discussion list when we were discussion fundementalism. It made two things inevitable; more &quot;sinning&quot; due to lowering of the importance of unavoidable consequences and errant dogma (misinterpretation of gospel by falliable humans yet uncritical adherence to interpretation.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m reminded of a &#8220;sin -&gt; human falliability -&gt; forgive -&gt; sin &#8230;.&#8221; cycle that was discussed on the LinuxSA discussion list when we were discussion fundementalism. It made two things inevitable; more &#8220;sinning&#8221; due to lowering of the importance of unavoidable consequences and errant dogma (misinterpretation of gospel by falliable humans yet uncritical adherence to interpretation.)</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Carter</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54710</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54710</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry, </p>
<p>I think you may be missing the point of my post (which means I didn’t communicate it clearly). I&#8217;m not defending Vitter at all. I think he should resign. In fact, I do think he is guilty of hypocrisy, but in a different context. He said that Bill Clinton should resign for his immoral actions yet doesn’t appear to think that he should do the same. Now <em>that</em> is hypocritical. </p>
<p>The point I was trying to make is that the media now only recognizes one sin – &#8220;hypocrisy&#8221; (really, moral inconsistency). The problem with this, as I noted, is that it denies that there is any real, objective moral standard at all. The biggest problem with Vitter&#8217;s actions is not that he was being inconsistent but that he <em>was soliciting a prostitute</em>. But to make that point, the media would have to admit that there might be something wrong (other than incurring a misdemeanor fine) for such actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54700</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54700</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;m going to have to keep taking it from both sides on this.  I give him lots of points for making a &lt;em&gt;real&lt;/em&gt; confession, but I find the original offense more than regrettable.  I also think that someone who is trying to be a major voice on a moral issue needs to have this out in the open.  IOW I &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; see a reason he should have gone public.

But then again, he&#039;s your senator, not mine!  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;m going to have to keep taking it from both sides on this.  I give him lots of points for making a <em>real</em> confession, but I find the original offense more than regrettable.  I also think that someone who is trying to be a major voice on a moral issue needs to have this out in the open.  IOW I <em>do</em> see a reason he should have gone public.</p>
<p>But then again, he&#8217;s your senator, not mine!  <img src='http://henrysthreads.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54693</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54693</guid>
		<description>Doh!  I didn&#039;t mean to put the same quote twice - sorry, I&#039;m undercaffeinated at this time of day.  This is the other part of the quote: &lt;i&gt;The statement containing Vitter&#039;s apology said his telephone number was included on phone records of Pamela Martin and Associates dating from before he ran for the Senate in 2004.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doh!  I didn&#8217;t mean to put the same quote twice &#8211; sorry, I&#8217;m undercaffeinated at this time of day.  This is the other part of the quote: <i>The statement containing Vitter&#8217;s apology said his telephone number was included on phone records of Pamela Martin and Associates dating from before he ran for the Senate in 2004.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54692</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54692</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think we should overlook the fact that his behavior occurred several years ago - it was not recent.  From the WaPo article: 
&lt;i&gt;&quot;Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling,&quot;...
&quot;Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling,&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

It was a closed chapter in his life.  He confessed and quit on his own, not waiting to be caught so whatever he said after 2004 had nothing to do with hypocrisy.  I can&#039;t think of any reason for him to reveal his sin to the public before now - I&#039;m satisfied that he confessed to his wife and inner circle.  This was a rehashing of an old, regrettable issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think we should overlook the fact that his behavior occurred several years ago &#8211; it was not recent.  From the WaPo article:<br />
<i>&#8220;Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling,&#8221;&#8230;<br />
&#8220;Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling,&#8221;</i></p>
<p>It was a closed chapter in his life.  He confessed and quit on his own, not waiting to be caught so whatever he said after 2004 had nothing to do with hypocrisy.  I can&#8217;t think of any reason for him to reveal his sin to the public before now &#8211; I&#8217;m satisfied that he confessed to his wife and inner circle.  This was a rehashing of an old, regrettable issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Threads from Henry&#8217;s Web &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Of Miss New Jersey and Stupidity</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54691</link>
		<dc:creator>Threads from Henry&#8217;s Web &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Of Miss New Jersey and Stupidity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54691</guid>
		<description>[...] I have two posts to generate complaints from the right. My moderate image may be shattered. Share and Enjoy:These [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have two posts to generate complaints from the right. My moderate image may be shattered. Share and Enjoy:These [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54685</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54685</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
If in fact, as so often later turns out to be true, the politicians with apparent integrity are covering up what is really happening in their life, isn’t that in fact an argument to vote for those who have openly admitted their moral failings?
</p></blockquote>
<p>My problem, in this case, is that he is very vocal on the issue, and he chose to admit his failing only <em>after</em> his name was released.  I would lighten up, though only a little, had he made his confession when it was known that the list existed, but not certain it would be released.</p>
<p>I <em>do</em> give him points for not hedging his confession, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/07/christian-politicians-arent-perfect-just-forgive-them/comment-page-1/#comment-54683</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=826#comment-54683</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Henry, I’m not sure where you’re getting any of this from, but it doesn’t seem to me that you got it from my post or Joe’s.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about others, but I read the paragraph I quoted from Joe and his approving quote of Bauer as minimizing the offense.</p>
<p>Here are two more things that led me to see it as minimizing:</p>
<ul>
<li>Putting David Vitter up against Flynt.   It looks like I&#8217;m supposed to appreciate the fact that Vitter&#8217;s moral standards are higher than Flynt&#8217;s even if Vitter doesn&#8217;t live up to them.</li>
<li>Going into the precise definition of hypocrisy.  I think you&#8217;re wrong on that from the Biblical point of view, but I&#8217;ll leave that aside until I have time to back it up.  The timing of that discussion again appears to be minimizing.</li>
</ul>
<p>I think maybe you should look at your post again in the context of the discussion.  You&#8217;re substantially more conservative than I am, and it seems to me you should find this sort of behavior unacceptable in a Senator, possibly even more so than I do.</p>
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