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	<title>Comments on: Behind Every Peaceful Protester . . .</title>
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	<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/behind-every-peaceful-protester/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/behind-every-peaceful-protester/comment-page-1/#comment-18622</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Henry, you and I are one on the Iraq war, and have been since before it started. And I don&#039;t go as far as saying that force should never be used, although I don&#039;t have a really consistent position on this. So there is not really much between us here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry, you and I are one on the Iraq war, and have been since before it started. And I don&#8217;t go as far as saying that force should never be used, although I don&#8217;t have a really consistent position on this. So there is not really much between us here.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/behind-every-peaceful-protester/comment-page-1/#comment-18160</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=516#comment-18160</guid>
		<description>Indeed I was watching TV at the time of Yeltsin&#039;s adventure.  But I would say there that the later Soviet rulers, and more particularly the Soviet troops at that point &lt;strong&gt;did&lt;/strong&gt; have a conscience, which was the ally of peaceful protesters.

I&#039;m certainly not arguing against peaceful protests.  I think that Gandhi and MLK, amongst others, did marvelous things for the world by showing what could be accomplished peacefully.  What I&#039;m arguing is that there are truly evil people on whom one must use force, or people who are so far gone that one cannot get their attention without force.  We need to combine the factors.

On the Iraq war all I can say is that it seems to me both a moral failure and also a massive failure of good judgment.  My problem in looking at it is that it looks so obvious to me that the Iraq war was a bad idea that I have a hard time understanding how supposedly intelligent, educated people could assume that the Iraq war was going to produce a good result.  I also must note that I didn&#039;t come to this conclusion by observing what happened in the war and becoming disillusioned.  I was opposed to the war before it started.  It has actually gone marginally better than I expected.  I&#039;m baffled by people who think there can possibly be any good result.  Without the possibility of a good result, the expenditure of life is apalling.  I&#039;m willing to see life expended, and as a military veteran I was willing to put my life on the line.  But I ask political leaders to spend those lives with at least a minimum of wisdom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed I was watching TV at the time of Yeltsin&#8217;s adventure.  But I would say there that the later Soviet rulers, and more particularly the Soviet troops at that point <strong>did</strong> have a conscience, which was the ally of peaceful protesters.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m certainly not arguing against peaceful protests.  I think that Gandhi and MLK, amongst others, did marvelous things for the world by showing what could be accomplished peacefully.  What I&#8217;m arguing is that there are truly evil people on whom one must use force, or people who are so far gone that one cannot get their attention without force.  We need to combine the factors.</p>
<p>On the Iraq war all I can say is that it seems to me both a moral failure and also a massive failure of good judgment.  My problem in looking at it is that it looks so obvious to me that the Iraq war was a bad idea that I have a hard time understanding how supposedly intelligent, educated people could assume that the Iraq war was going to produce a good result.  I also must note that I didn&#8217;t come to this conclusion by observing what happened in the war and becoming disillusioned.  I was opposed to the war before it started.  It has actually gone marginally better than I expected.  I&#8217;m baffled by people who think there can possibly be any good result.  Without the possibility of a good result, the expenditure of life is apalling.  I&#8217;m willing to see life expended, and as a military veteran I was willing to put my life on the line.  But I ask political leaders to spend those lives with at least a minimum of wisdom.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/behind-every-peaceful-protester/comment-page-1/#comment-18156</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=516#comment-18156</guid>
		<description>Well, Henry, you are right that we Brits have a conscience. It&#039;s a shame that our current leaders don&#039;t, concerning Iraq, or at least their only conscience is Bush. I suppose Burma/Myanmar is a good current example of a regime which has not been toppled by continuing peaceful and not so peaceful dissent, because the regime doesn&#039;t have a conscience. But the Soviet communists were not a good example in later years; maybe Stalin would have simply executed Gandhi and anyone who supported him, but in the end a lot of what brought about the final collapse of the Soviet Union was peaceful mass protest, and the authorities&#039; realisation that they couldn&#039;t get away with repression indefinitely. Remember &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1478422.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Yeltsin climbing on a tank&lt;/a&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Henry, you are right that we Brits have a conscience. It&#8217;s a shame that our current leaders don&#8217;t, concerning Iraq, or at least their only conscience is Bush. I suppose Burma/Myanmar is a good current example of a regime which has not been toppled by continuing peaceful and not so peaceful dissent, because the regime doesn&#8217;t have a conscience. But the Soviet communists were not a good example in later years; maybe Stalin would have simply executed Gandhi and anyone who supported him, but in the end a lot of what brought about the final collapse of the Soviet Union was peaceful mass protest, and the authorities&#8217; realisation that they couldn&#8217;t get away with repression indefinitely. Remember <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1478422.stm" rel="nofollow">Yeltsin climbing on a tank</a>?</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/behind-every-peaceful-protester/comment-page-1/#comment-18033</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=516#comment-18033</guid>
		<description>I see, and kind of expected, your objection.  But I would note that you mention the security forces having a conscience as one possibility.  I agree.  Sometimes it&#039;s people in other countries that have the conscience.  But in those places where outside pressure is either minimal or non-existent, peaceful movements get crushed.  Consider China and Tien-an-men Square.  While there is marginal civil rights improvement in China, that was a fairly effective suppression.  It was delayed by military officers with consciences who didn&#039;t want to do it, but eventually the government overcame.  I would suggest that the level of success indicates the potential conscience available to be awakened.

To harp on India again, while the UK built quite an empire, you guys are simply not that ruthless.  As a nation you have a fairly sensitive conscience (ignoring our mutual transgression with regard to Iraq), and I think you did in India.  What other nations might have seen as minor transgressions touched the English conscience.

Now I don&#039;t ignore economic and practical factors.  They play a role as well.  I just think there has to be that unwillingness to be completely ruthless in there somewhere.  Historical regimes that lack that element have been quite successful and eradicating peaceful protest.  The Russian communists, for example, would have executed Gandhi before he got popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see, and kind of expected, your objection.  But I would note that you mention the security forces having a conscience as one possibility.  I agree.  Sometimes it&#8217;s people in other countries that have the conscience.  But in those places where outside pressure is either minimal or non-existent, peaceful movements get crushed.  Consider China and Tien-an-men Square.  While there is marginal civil rights improvement in China, that was a fairly effective suppression.  It was delayed by military officers with consciences who didn&#8217;t want to do it, but eventually the government overcame.  I would suggest that the level of success indicates the potential conscience available to be awakened.</p>
<p>To harp on India again, while the UK built quite an empire, you guys are simply not that ruthless.  As a nation you have a fairly sensitive conscience (ignoring our mutual transgression with regard to Iraq), and I think you did in India.  What other nations might have seen as minor transgressions touched the English conscience.</p>
<p>Now I don&#8217;t ignore economic and practical factors.  They play a role as well.  I just think there has to be that unwillingness to be completely ruthless in there somewhere.  Historical regimes that lack that element have been quite successful and eradicating peaceful protest.  The Russian communists, for example, would have executed Gandhi before he got popular.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2007/01/behind-every-peaceful-protester/comment-page-1/#comment-18012</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=516#comment-18012</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Peaceful protest is good, but it requires a certain context in which to work, and that context assumes some level of conscience on the other side. Otherwise, peaceful protest will not succeed. Protesting peacefully against rulers who are evil to the core simply gets one dead, often slowly and painfully dead.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t think I agree. Of course individuals are not going to succeed alone against really evil rulers. But when the peaceful process, perhaps initially inspired by an individual, becomes a mass movement, even the ruler with no conscience at all has to take note. For one thing, the ruler has a vested interest that his or her country should continue to function smoothly and prosper economically, and mass protests which threaten that have to be taken seriously. Also, even if the ruler has no conscience, sometimes the security forces do, and when the forces start to sympathise with the mass protest the ruler&#039;s days are numbered. The wise despot makes gradual minor concessions and manages to preserve his or her rule. The foolish despot often comes to a bloody end; the blood is not inevitable, but the end is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Peaceful protest is good, but it requires a certain context in which to work, and that context assumes some level of conscience on the other side. Otherwise, peaceful protest will not succeed. Protesting peacefully against rulers who are evil to the core simply gets one dead, often slowly and painfully dead.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I agree. Of course individuals are not going to succeed alone against really evil rulers. But when the peaceful process, perhaps initially inspired by an individual, becomes a mass movement, even the ruler with no conscience at all has to take note. For one thing, the ruler has a vested interest that his or her country should continue to function smoothly and prosper economically, and mass protests which threaten that have to be taken seriously. Also, even if the ruler has no conscience, sometimes the security forces do, and when the forces start to sympathise with the mass protest the ruler&#8217;s days are numbered. The wise despot makes gradual minor concessions and manages to preserve his or her rule. The foolish despot often comes to a bloody end; the blood is not inevitable, but the end is.</p>
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