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	<title>Comments on: An Intelligent Designer in the Gaps</title>
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	<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Religion in the World from a passionate, moderate, liberal charismatic Christian</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-8122</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Also, as an amusing side-note, irreducible complexity is actually a utilized concept in evolutionary research.  A &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5776/1011&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;recent paper in Science used IC concepts to show that Eukaryotes did not evolve from Prokaryotes&lt;/a&gt;.  It&#039;s just that it&#039;s taboo today to use those same arguments to say that Eukaryotes or Prokaryotes did not evolve from nonliving matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, as an amusing side-note, irreducible complexity is actually a utilized concept in evolutionary research.  A <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5776/1011" rel="nofollow">recent paper in Science used IC concepts to show that Eukaryotes did not evolve from Prokaryotes</a>.  It&#8217;s just that it&#8217;s taboo today to use those same arguments to say that Eukaryotes or Prokaryotes did not evolve from nonliving matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-8121</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=390#comment-8121</guid>
		<description>&quot;unless you first find it necessary to reject natural causes.&quot;

I think the issue might be in what constitute &quot;natural causes&quot;.  Precisely the core of Intelligent Design is that &quot;agency&quot; is a &quot;natural cause&quot; (it is observable and testable in the here and now) but not a mechanistic one.  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uncommondescent.com/archives/1203&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my article on ID as a theory of causation&lt;/a&gt;.  It&#039;s not the inclusion of new causes that aren&#039;t readily observed -- in fact, we observe intelligent causes throughout life.  The difference is that Intelligent Design does not assume that intelligent causes are thoroughly describable by mechanistic causes.  Therefore, one aspect (but not the only aspect) of ID is to be able to separate causes or components of causes.  Interestingly, one ID scientist is already &lt;a href=&quot;http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/PTB6.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;putting the ID concepts of non-mechanistic causes&lt;/a&gt; into scientific use that has nothing whatsoever to do with origins.  Because ID is not primarily a theory of origins, but rather causation.

&quot;he starts from the position of irreducible complexity, not from the position of the appearance of design&quot;

I think you are misreading what &quot;irreducible complexity&quot; is to Behe.  It is not fundamentallly about evolution, but instead about a designed holism.  It is an attempt to define empirically what a holistic system looks like.  It may not be the best way to do so, but if you read what he is getting at, he is trying to come up with a scientific definition of holism, which is in fact what designers do when designing.  The post &lt;a href=&quot;http://baraminology.blogspot.com/2006/04/irreducible-complexity-what-it-is-and.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I referred to earlier&lt;/a&gt; makes this case.

Another interesting argument for holism/IC in biology (in the case it is a specific holism -- that of self-referential symbolic codes) is &lt;a href=&quot;http://home.online.no/~albvoie/index.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Voie&#039;s argument from Godel incompleteness&lt;/a&gt; -- that intelligent agency is a necessary factor in creating self-referential symbolic codes, and that Godel&#039;s incompleteness theorem proves that mechanistic causes are incapable of such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;unless you first find it necessary to reject natural causes.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the issue might be in what constitute &#8220;natural causes&#8221;.  Precisely the core of Intelligent Design is that &#8220;agency&#8221; is a &#8220;natural cause&#8221; (it is observable and testable in the here and now) but not a mechanistic one.  See <a href="http://www.uncommondescent.com/archives/1203" rel="nofollow">my article on ID as a theory of causation</a>.  It&#8217;s not the inclusion of new causes that aren&#8217;t readily observed &#8212; in fact, we observe intelligent causes throughout life.  The difference is that Intelligent Design does not assume that intelligent causes are thoroughly describable by mechanistic causes.  Therefore, one aspect (but not the only aspect) of ID is to be able to separate causes or components of causes.  Interestingly, one ID scientist is already <a href="http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/PTB6.pdf" rel="nofollow">putting the ID concepts of non-mechanistic causes</a> into scientific use that has nothing whatsoever to do with origins.  Because ID is not primarily a theory of origins, but rather causation.</p>
<p>&#8220;he starts from the position of irreducible complexity, not from the position of the appearance of design&#8221;</p>
<p>I think you are misreading what &#8220;irreducible complexity&#8221; is to Behe.  It is not fundamentallly about evolution, but instead about a designed holism.  It is an attempt to define empirically what a holistic system looks like.  It may not be the best way to do so, but if you read what he is getting at, he is trying to come up with a scientific definition of holism, which is in fact what designers do when designing.  The post <a href="http://baraminology.blogspot.com/2006/04/irreducible-complexity-what-it-is-and.html" rel="nofollow">I referred to earlier</a> makes this case.</p>
<p>Another interesting argument for holism/IC in biology (in the case it is a specific holism &#8212; that of self-referential symbolic codes) is <a href="http://home.online.no/~albvoie/index.cfm" rel="nofollow">Voie&#8217;s argument from Godel incompleteness</a> &#8212; that intelligent agency is a necessary factor in creating self-referential symbolic codes, and that Godel&#8217;s incompleteness theorem proves that mechanistic causes are incapable of such.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-8107</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 16:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=390#comment-8107</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
ID</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
ID</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-8096</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=390#comment-8096</guid>
		<description>I think you are misunderstanding the ID argument.  ID&#039;s primary argument _is not_ that evolution can&#039;t do it.  That is a sub-argument.  ID&#039;s primary argument is that the type of features that you see in biological systems are _precisely those_ which signify intelligent causes in every other circumstance we view.

IC doesn&#039;t say &quot;this can&#039;t be produced evolutionarily and therefore it was designed&quot;, but rather &quot;this can&#039;t be produced by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, AND it matches what we know about how designers design, therefore, design is a better explanation than Darwinism&quot;.

Also, just to be clear, Behe is NOT arguing that IC systems don&#039;t evolve.  In fact, Behe does in fact believe that they do evolve (in fact, most of the leading lights in the ID movement take Universal Common Ancestry for granted), but rather that they evolve &lt;a href=&quot;http://baraminology.blogspot.com/2006/04/irreducible-complexity-what-it-is-and.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;by a telic, rather than a non-telic, mechanism&lt;/a&gt;.  The pure mechanistic version of this idea (at least after the origin-of-life) is known as front-loaded evolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are misunderstanding the ID argument.  ID&#8217;s primary argument _is not_ that evolution can&#8217;t do it.  That is a sub-argument.  ID&#8217;s primary argument is that the type of features that you see in biological systems are _precisely those_ which signify intelligent causes in every other circumstance we view.</p>
<p>IC doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;this can&#8217;t be produced evolutionarily and therefore it was designed&#8221;, but rather &#8220;this can&#8217;t be produced by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, AND it matches what we know about how designers design, therefore, design is a better explanation than Darwinism&#8221;.</p>
<p>Also, just to be clear, Behe is NOT arguing that IC systems don&#8217;t evolve.  In fact, Behe does in fact believe that they do evolve (in fact, most of the leading lights in the ID movement take Universal Common Ancestry for granted), but rather that they evolve <a href="http://baraminology.blogspot.com/2006/04/irreducible-complexity-what-it-is-and.html" rel="nofollow">by a telic, rather than a non-telic, mechanism</a>.  The pure mechanistic version of this idea (at least after the origin-of-life) is known as front-loaded evolution.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-7983</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=390#comment-7983</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t studied these issues in detail, but a basic knowledge of the history of science makes me skeptical of the &quot;God in the gaps&quot; premise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t studied these issues in detail, but a basic knowledge of the history of science makes me skeptical of the &#8220;God in the gaps&#8221; premise.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Seab</title>
		<link>http://henrysthreads.com/2006/10/an-intelligent-designer-in-the-gaps/comment-page-1/#comment-7414</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Seab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=390#comment-7414</guid>
		<description>Seems to me mankind expects too much from our powers to explain. Our world is a </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me mankind expects too much from our powers to explain. Our world is a </p>
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